RFT Confusion??

[scottcuban]

I have been watching the Alignment Golf DVD and absorbing as much as I can with each viewing. It is amazing how I keep picking up different things each time.

I have question with the right forearm takeaway that maybe someone could shed some light on. If my understanding is correct;
As the right forearm moves up the plane, the right elbow moves up the plane too. At some point the forearm has to begin rotating and at that point the elbow stops going back and becomes sort of a pivot point. My question is where does this happen? Is the elbow in front of me, even with the seam of the shirt, behind me (a la Hardy)? I am confused as depending on posture and club selection, it can vary but I would think there has to be a general area. I feel like I can have it in different places with each swing. Perhaps I am completely off base altogether? Any insight would appreciated. Thanks

[innercityteacher]

Hi Scott. Your confusion mirrors mine. Sometimes, when I turn during a pivot, the club face does not open to the infinite planeline. Last week, my GSEB proved to me that my shoulders control my club face which still blows me away. Based on that info., I'm concluding that a square to the target club face means the back shoulder is rolling off the planeline and I'm about to create a hook if I don't bring the elbow underneath. I think Mr. Hardy's stuff is a funky Horizontal Hinge chicken.

I am emotionally prepared to be corrected by my LBG 'betters" knowing that wisdom from making mistakes is way better than continued ignorance of this great game!

Pat

[KevCarter]

I think these wonderful drawings sum it up. Mr. Kelley's ideas on RFT are nothing like Mr. Hardy's.

In my opinion, the stick man on the right of the second picture shows where we want the right elbow to move to, up the plane. The stick man on the left would be more typical of someone who wants to start the lawn mower, under plane IMHO...

Kevin

[BerntR]

The right elbow has to go under the inclined / clubshaft / sweet spot plane, starting immediately from address.

And it will not get back to the surface before you reach impact or thereabout. If it stays up in the plane or comes back too early you have a throwaway problem.

You can basically study any decent golfer down the line and you will quickly see that this is the only way.

[innercityteacher]

OK, let me see if I can sing along and get the meaning of the words.

A- The "single shift-prepared to roll" does not reveal the on-plane right forearm which is important. In effect, if my right forearm starts on plane, so does my elbow (?).

B- If that premise is correct, when my forearms trace the inclined plane, doesn't my right elbow fall below and parallel to the sweet spot plane of necessity ( as Bernt R states)?

Drum roll for the ending of one of my misunderstandings...So, the only way we can effectively put the right elbow back on the sweetspot plane is by extenging the right arm/elbow in our desired approach?

C- If the above is a correct observation, my Jim Hardy type failure to rotate the right/left wedges (lawn mower move) means possibly, 1) a failure to roll due to a stuck elbow showing tension for whatever silly swing thought 2) an off-plane back shoulder movement, 3) a strange misrepresentaton of a Horizontal Hinge (like Orcs were strange misrepresentations of the race of men, ogres to dwarfs, and something else to elves according to Tolkien's notes).

D- I don't have a clue as to how you fellas use a Horiz. Hinge to hit a controllable, mostly straight sort of draw. When I try the HH, I hit a ball that goes 2/3'ds straight and 1/3 rd left with any club.

Could you explain my mistakes and misunderstandings on these topics?

Pat

[BerntR]

OK, let me see if I can sing along and get the meaning of the words.

A- The "single shift-prepared to roll" does not reveal the on-plane right forearm which is important.

Don't understand what you try to say here

In effect, if my right forearm starts on plane, so does my elbow (?).

Naturally

B- If that premise is correct, when my forearms trace the inclined plane, doesn't my right elbow fall below and parallel to the sweet spot plane of necessity ( as Bernt R states)?¨

If you try to trace the inclined plane with your forearms your pivot will get in the way of your hands and vice versa. Tracing the plane with your clubshaft (and therefore the hands) is what you want to do. Not the forearms, not the elbows, not the shoulders.

Your left forarm is above the plane from address and a long way into the follow thru. Your right forearm will be under the plane between address and impact. The only things that really are on plane here are the club and the forces you swing it with.

Drum roll for the ending of one of my misunderstandings...So, the only way we can effectively put the right elbow back on the sweetspot plane is by extenging the right arm/elbow in our desired approach?

You don't have to do anything deliberate to put the right elbow back on plane. And if you should strike the ball before it's back that wouldn't be such a big deal either. It is when the elbow gets above the plane that you are in trouble.

C- If the above is a correct observation, my Jim Hardy type failure to rotate the right/left wedges (lawn mower move) means possibly, 1) a failure to roll due to a stuck elbow showing tension for whatever silly swing thought 2) an off-plane back shoulder movement, 3) a strange misrepresentaton of a Horizontal Hinge (like Orcs were strange misrepresentations of the race of men, ogres to dwarfs, and something else to elves according to Tolkien's notes).

He-he. Good one.

Here's how I do my vertical hinge: I wait with the pivot and swing my hands forward and eventually past the pivot so there's minim lag beetween hands and shoulders at impact. A very gradual, slow and almost amputed release of accumulator #3. And I try to maintain good hands speed to past low point. That keeps the clubface open.

For a horizontal hinge I do the opposite. I let the pivot lead and pull the arms through. I find it easier to accomplish this with more hip turn. And to the extent that I do any roll with the forearms it is in the opposite direction for a while - to keep the clubface open longer and delay the hinge action as long as possible. And when the time is right I let Accumulator #3 release. The A#3 release is the part where the club head goes from open and trailing to closed and leading. The hands speed is very moderate when that happens. The rate of forearm rotation can be very quick.

Centrifugal force will do it for you. But you must let your hands work like a passive hinge to make it work.

The more I lead with the pivot, the more I trail with the hands and the longer I keep the cluface open before A #3 is released - the more dual horizontal it gets. It is very important to keep the left arm stretched throughout, while at the same time keeping thos hinges oily. Pure rope handling + oily hinges.

No deliberately hands and forearm effort to square up the club. It may be very counterintuitive to begin with.

There's a lot of light bulb material in letting the dual horizontal happen. A key to move past steering tendencies lies there.

D- I don't have a clue as to how you fellas use a Horiz. Hinge to hit a controllable, mostly straight sort of draw. When I try the HH, I hit a ball that goes 2/3'ds straight and 1/3 rd left with any club.

Could be all sorts of reasons for that.

First: Check your grip. If it's too strong the ball will turn left.

Perhaps you are bending the plane. And steering. And bringing your right elbow above the plane you were supposed to swing along - thus bringing your hands and your club outside the intended plane and back in for an outside to in swing.

[elygc1]

Innercity,

I'm sure the shoulders influence the face to some degree, but the grip and left wrist have way more influence on the face.

I know when I think of right forearm takeaway, it gets me looking great on video, but I can't play my best when feeling it. To me it feels too hard to get a good transition at the top. I can't feel my left side, but it looks awesome

[JerryG]

Innercity,
I don't think you should worry too much yet about whether or not you are hinging Horizontally or Angled. I'm thinking straight line delivery with the heel of the right hand covering the ball. It is a lot easier to actually do, for me, if I make sure the shaft is running right up the cup in my right hand and the Right Arm On Plane. Tues and Wed. I hit it dead straight with the irons a bit of a draw with the hybrids and woods.
After taking stock of my right arm and pp's #1 and 3, I grabbed a wedge and focused on H, A, or V hinging. Then I grabbed a 7 iron and tried to pay attention to only my hands. Then a hybrid and then a driver. The clubhead goes where my hands take it. If I over cook it, I am pretty sure I turned the back of my left hand over too much.
I am still stumbling in the woods, but at least I can see some daylight, though sometimes it appears a bit overcast.
This application of pressure into (through) the shaft is nothing short of startling. I kick myself nearly everyday for not finding this many many years ago.

[innercityteacher]

but this is just too cool for school!

OK, let's see if we can synch-up with the same concepts.

Straightline sounds beastly strong which would add nice counter-balance to Jerry's report of Kevin's Brut aftershave. or was it Aramis, Kevin?

And BerntR, Elygc1, would you share with us the origin of your names? And we want graphic details and regional "local color."

I must provide a story, of course, from my unusually ineffective school. This happened in some part of the school today, according to unnamed sources I happen to know.

On second thought, let's keep it for a golf outing or personal email. Bernt, show me yours if you wish and I'll show you mine. Jeez, that sounds like something Jerry would say!

Ok, back to superb golf insights.

Jerry, are you saying you grip the club with your right hand, making sure it's below the thumb and up the inside of the forearm? It is address position?


And then, you trace the right forearm as a spoke of a wheel up the plane?

Then you pivot or do you just step on the front leg and shoot the arm straight through the ball adjusting the hands for the hinges?

No thought of shoulders? Elbows? What about good Chinese places in MN? I don't want more than one good smorgasboard, OK? Steakhouse? Will the temperature be above 40 degrees in August? Any chance of snow?


ICT

Innercity,
I don't think you should worry too much yet about whether or not you are hinging Horizontally or Angled. I'm thinking straight line delivery with the heel of the right hand covering the ball. It is a lot easier to actually do, for me, if I make sure the shaft is running right up the cup in my right hand and the Right Arm On Plane. Tues and Wed. I hit it dead straight with the irons a bit of a draw with the hybrids and woods.
After taking stock of my right arm and pp's #1 and 3, I grabbed a wedge and focused on H, A, or V hinging. Then I grabbed a 7 iron and tried to pay attention to only my hands. Then a hybrid and then a driver. The clubhead goes where my hands take it. If I over cook it, I am pretty sure I turned the back of my left hand over too much.
I am still stumbling in the woods, but at least I can see some daylight, though sometimes it appears a bit overcast.
This application of pressure into (through) the shaft is nothing short of startling. I kick myself nearly everyday for not finding this many many years ago.

[innercityteacher]

Thanks!


Naturally, If you try to trace the inclined plane with your forearms your pivot will get in the way of your hands and vice versa. Tracing the plane with your clubshaft (and therefore the hands) is what you want to do. Not the forearms, not the elbows, not the shoulders.
Ok, that makes sense.

Your left forarm is above the plane from address and a long way into the follow thru. Your right forearm will be under the plane between address and impact. The only things that really are on plane here are the club and the forces you swing it with.Check, very logical. Sort of a "plane sandwhich," made with forearms. Are we starting with an address position?



It is when the elbow gets above the plane that you are in trouble. I'm not sure how I could do that.


Here's how I do my vertical hinge: I wait with the pivot and swing my hands forward and eventually past the pivot so there's minim lag beetween hands and shoulders at impact. A very gradual, slow and almost amputed release of accumulator #3. And I try to maintain good hands speed to past low point. That keeps the clubface open.

For a horizontal hinge I do the opposite. I let the pivot lead and pull the arms through. I find it easier to accomplish this with more hip turn. And to the extent that I do any roll with the forearms it is in the opposite direction for a while - to keep the clubface open longer and delay the hinge action as long as possible. And when the time is right I let Accumulator #3 release. The A#3 release is the part where the club head goes from open and trailing to closed and leading. The hands speed is very moderate when that happens. The rate of forearm rotation can be very quick.

Centrifugal force will do it for you. But you must let your hands work like a passive hinge to make it work.

The more I lead with the pivot, the more I trail with the hands and the longer I keep the cluface open before A #3 is released - the more dual horizontal it gets. It is very important to keep the left arm stretched throughout, while at the same time keeping thos hinges oily. Pure rope handling + oily hinges.

No deliberately hands and forearm effort to square up the club. It may be very counterintuitive to begin with.

There's a lot of light bulb material in letting the dual horizontal happen. A key to move past steering tendencies lies there. I will have to take this to the range and see if I can get all this. I did find EdZ's drills for HH and I will let you and everyone know what I experience with all this. Thanks for taking the time to help!!!

ICT