Need help connecting a few dots: Plane shifting - hands vs pivot - release type
I hope this theme deserves a new thread. TGM is full of causes and consequences that isn't always easy to overview. Daryl seems to be more on top of this than most others and he has given me a few things to think about. At the moment I neither agree or disagree. I just try to understand Daryl's and TGM's take on this.
Originally Posted by Daryl
I have been misrepresented.
I don't Shift during the Downstroke. I also said that there are exceptions to the Flip Release by Plane Shifters. I named Hogan, Nelson and Sergio Garcia as the exceptions. The reason for their exception is because their Clubshafts are already aligned to the Impact Shaft Angle before they reach the Transition from their Startdown Plane to the Elbow Plane. Thus, they can choose any Release Type that their Release Point can accommodate.
Additionally, a Plane Shifting Player can adjust his Stance, Target and Plane lines to adjust the Release Point and not be forced to "Flip" Release.
So... If you plane shift, but keep the clubshaft plane angle constant, you can use any release that your pivot can support. So the club will travel on parallel planes. Is that what you're saying?
You say that plane shifters depend on a fixed release point. And I assume you will say that plane shifters play with pivot controlled hands. Is that right?
What are the mechanical requirements to hands controlled pivot and why is it only a single plane that meet those.
Can golfers who swing on the elbow plane have hands controlled pivot? Hands plane? Turning shoulder plane?
Do you regard the pivot motion as a constant when you draw these conclusions? In the sense that it basically does the same motion every time?
I realise that there is a tighter relationship between the pivot and the release with a plane shift. For some of us, that is partly the point of doing it: To get more pivot into the release. But that also means that the hands can do less on their own. Thus, you would need a more flexible and responsive pivot to have something as flexible as "hands control".
If I asked you to hypothize: What kind of pivot control would it take to play hands controlled with plane shift? Let's assume that you can change Zone 1 by merely thinking about what you want to do with the ball.
So... If you plane shift, but keep the clubshaft plane angle constant, you can use any release that your pivot can support. So the club will travel on parallel planes. Is that what you're saying?
You say that plane shifters depend on a fixed release point. And I assume you will say that plane shifters play with pivot controlled hands. Is that right?
What are the mechanical requirements to hands controlled pivot and why is it only a single plane that meet those.
No. Let me help shift your understanding into high gear. This is going to cause a big bump in your TGM knowledge, so hang on to something.
First Concept: The Downstroke Hand Path of a Plane Shifter, is first Downward and then Outward (normal). His Left Arm remains nearly Adjacent to his Chest as it moves from high on his Chest at the Top of his Backstroke, to low on his chest (almost waste High) before his Left Arm moves away from his Chest.
When the Left Arm moves away from his chest, Release Occurs, and your Release Point will be at your Right Hip because that's where your Right Elbow is located when your Left Arm is against the chest and your Hands are Low. Anytime the Pivot controls the Hand Path Direction from the Top of the Swing, the Right Elbow will ALWAYS be Driven to this Location because the Left Arm Slides Down along the Chest.
Let me sum that up to make things perfectly clear... As the Left Arm moves Down the Chest, it will ALWAYS locate the Right Elbow at the Right Hip before Release. ALL PLANE SHIFTERS drop, lower or move or Drive the Left Arm Down the Chest during the Downswing. Otherwise, they wouldn't be Plane-Shifters anymore.
Second Concept: The most critical dimension in Golf Stroke Geometry, is the distance/measurement between the Right Elbow and the Ball at the time of Contact and Ball Separation. The Right Forearm Flying Wedge and Club Length and Plane Angle makes it so. If you place a Yardstick on the Planeline, the distance from Right Elbow to the Ball may be 12 inches for a Driver. Unfortunately for Plane Shifters, when using a 9 iron, that distance increases to 16 inches because of the shorter Club and Steeper Plane along with Right Elbow being Located at your Right Hip. Hence, Plane Shifters need to play the ball back 4 inches behind the Driver location when using a 9 iron. Or, the Plane Shifter can narrow his Stance, thus moving his Release Point closer to the Ball. One way or another, the Plane shifter needs to control the distance between his Right Hip and Ball at Impact for every Club because his Release Point is Always the same.
In Hands Controlled Pivot Swings, it doesn't work that way. The Hands don't follow a Downward Path - then Outward Path. The Left Arm doesn't drop Down the chest and then move away from the chest. The Hands Simply Trace the Planeline. At what location the Left Arm starts moving away, is determined by your Stance, Plane line and Target Line configuration and Plane Angle or, you're decision to use a "SWEEP", "RANDOM" or "SNAP" Release. ONE Ball Location and adjust your Stance for Balance.
Originally Posted by BerntR
Can golfers who swing on the elbow plane have hands controlled pivot? Hands plane? Turning shoulder plane?
Yes, as long as they don't shift Planes.
Originally Posted by BerntR
What kind of pivot control would it take to play hands controlled with plane shift?
You would first need to break the Laws of Physics. Then grow three arms. I think it can work with 3 arms.
-I think you can be Hands To Pivot and Shift Planes.
-I think Plane Shifts influence the Hand Path, obviously. 10-23-A is Single Shift , 10-23- B,C and D are Double Shift.
-But Hand Path does not determine the Release Point. You'll notice that 10-24 illustrates all five Release (s) using the 10-23-C Hand Path (Double Shift).
-I believe Plane Shifting is hazardous , for sure, but so is crossing the street. You need to rank your hazards. Hogan was a Double Shifter and hit out of his own divots. Plane Shifting should be ranked way below Plane Line compliance in a hierarchy of Geometrical needs.
-I think you can be Hands To Pivot and Shift Planes.
-I think Plane Shifts influence the Hand Path, obviously. 10-23-A is Single Shift , 10-23- B,C and D are Double Shift.
-But Hand Path does not determine the Release Point. You'll notice that 10-24 illustrates all five Release (s) using the 10-23-C Hand Path (Double Shift).
-I believe Plane Shifting is hazardous , for sure, but so is crossing the street. You need to rank your hazards. Hogan was a Double Shifter and hit out of his own divots. Plane Shifting should be ranked way below Plane Line compliance in a hierarchy of Geometrical needs.
10-23-C is a Straight Line Delivery Path and does not shift during the Downstroke. It is not a Double shift. Please re-examine.
Hand Path does not determine Release Point but Elbow Path Does. And, the Elbow Path for Plane Shifters is Always the same.
I'm amused when I listen to Golfers say that during the fleeting second of the Downstroke, that one can consciously aim the #3 PP first downward and then outward toward the Plane Line and additionally, if by magic, the Clubshaft and Clubhead move to the new Plane Angle by themselves, thus acting on their own. Do all Plane Shifters use 2 Aiming Points? One for the Downstroke and another for Release through Impact and Follow-through?
Here's an interesting Book Quote that most readers miss. Page 208.
Quote:
The Flip Release procedure always uses the Shoulder Turn “Takeaway” (10-6-B) which produces a curved Plane Shift by both the Hands and Clubhead. This is part of its Body related (not Ball related) execution as “Pivot Controlled Hands” referred to in 5-0. The Pivot may be educated to produce geometric Hand and Club alignments and relationships with some degree of precision which definitely improve control. Expanding this infiltration could serve as your “Relative Translation procedure (3-B) to true “Hand Controlled Pivot” procedure. But – except as a temporary Band Aid, any mandatory Component position or location can only be disruptive and carries a prohibitive price tag. See 1-K.
10-23-C is a Straight Line Delivery Path and does not shift during the Downstroke. It is not a Double shift. Please re-examine.
Yes quite right, Single Shift then assuming a Shift on the Backswing to get to End.
I agree that a Shoulder Turn Takeaway, which is always flat and under plane, requires the Hands to be lifted to a higher Plane just to get to Top but that doesnt mean that only Pivot to Hands players shift going back (or down).
D, where does Homer say that the Aiming Point Concept cant be used by golfers who shift planes on the downswing? I get your logic but.......I can see it the other way too.
6-E-2 THE AIMING POINT CONCEPT
"..........the Hands must always take one of the Delivery Paths, (10-23) but even with Circle Path, the Thrust is still a Straight Line EFFORT towards the Aiming Point."
D, where does Homer say that the Aiming Point Concept cant be used by golfers who shift planes on the downswing? I get your logic but.......I can see it the other way too.
Actually, Homer does lead one to believe that the Aiming Point Concept Can be used with Plane Shifting.
See the Second Paragraph below.
Quote:
10-23-B ANGLED LINE This pattern is used with the Plane Angle Variation that include a shift to (or back to) the Elbow Plane during the Downstroke.
From the Top-of-the-Straight-Line hand position the Hands take a nearly vertical path to the Plane of the Elbow Angle before they start their drive directly at and through the Aiming Point (2-J-3).
On the other Hand, he talks about the "Aiming Point Equivalent" for Plane Shifters is the "Open" or "Closed" Stance.
Quote:
The Aiming Point (6-E) equivalent for this procedure is the “Open” and “Closed” Stance Line (10-5) which varies the Ball location in its relation to the body for any given Release Type (10-20, 10-24), to compensate for different Clubshaft lengths and must worked out by experimentation (See 9-1-1) because the players habitual Pivot procedure will bring the Hands very dependably into Release Position at the same time point in relation to the body.. So then, of course, errors in the Pivot affect the results adversely. As with any Swing Release (10-19-0), Ball placement (2-N) depends on Clubface alignment design (6-B-3-0) as well as Hinge Action (2-G). Right Arm participation must be per 2-K and 2-M-3.
I don't think this to be a contradiction. I do think that HK thought is possible to choose one or the other but that using the Aiming Point is more or less a Translation into learning the Straight Line Delivery Path and Hands Controlled Pivot. see below
Quote:
The Pivot may be educated to produce geometric Hand and Club alignments and relationships with some degree of precision which definitely improve control. Expanding this infiltration could serve as your “Relative Translation procedure (3-B) to true “Hand Controlled Pivot” procedure. But – except as a temporary Band Aid, any mandatory Component position or location can only be disruptive and carries a prohibitive price tag. See 1-K.
On the other Hand, he talks about the "Aiming Point Equivalent" for Plane Shifters is the "Open" or "Closed" Stance.
Quote:
The Aiming Point (6-E) equivalent for this procedure is the “Open” and “Closed” Stance Line (10-5) which varies the Ball location in its relation to the body for any given Release Type (10-20, 10-24), to compensate for different Clubshaft lengths and must worked out by experimentation (See 9-1-1) because the players habitual Pivot procedure will bring the Hands very dependably into Release Position at the same time point in relation to the body.. So then, of course, errors in the Pivot affect the results adversely. As with any Swing Release (10-19-0), Ball placement (2-N) depends on Clubface alignment design (6-B-3-0) as well as Hinge Action (2-G). Right Arm participation must be per 2-K and 2-M-3.
Isnt that quote really from 10-24-F Automatic Flip Release as opposed to a discussion of Plane Shifting? And what the heck were we supposed to be talking about again? I cant remember........
Oh ya, Plane Shifting, Hands to Pivot and Release Types...............
I understand what you say, Daryl. And I appreciate the explanation. This could mean that I am doing something that is outside the boundaries of TGM. But after having reread chapter 5 and some of the latest posts here, i don't see any reason why the pivot motion must be "habitual" except when a flip release is used just because it happens. I don't find the qualifications with regards to pivot controlled hands and plane shifting. 5.0:
Quote:
The Hands are the "Command Post" for all Feel processing. As the Stroke proceeds, they dictate to the Feet as certainly as they dictate to the Club...
Anyway:
I may not be a ball-worker day in day out, but the workability is there in the basic stroke pattern I use. I can move my low point back and forth and I can adjust the timing of the release and I can manipulate the hinge action. With the pivot and with the arms. I have much better hands control over everything when I turn my hips trough the ball on the elbow plane than I have when I swing my ARMS through the ball.
I avoid taking the club under the plane on the way back by starting the back from a turned through position. The very start is with the feet, that partly rocks, partly turns the shoulder so the motion starts on plane. The arms start swinging almost at the same time. The good thing about the starting with the feet, is that it enables you to use a similar motion through the ball. And it is a very strong motion.
I meet the ball earlier in the downstroke than a stock TGM pattern does, so to speak. I do it by keep turning the pivot instead of letting the arms go from PP#4. That gives me more strength at impact and I don't lose any swing speed either.
The longer you can stay connected in the down stroke, the harder you can hit the ball. Not necessarily faster but certainly harder. But it takes a wider rangt of pivot motion, not least with the hips, to take this connectedness as close to impact as possible. Of course, starting with the hips and shoulders more turned through makes it easier to get there. And I can't do any of this without a plane shift. If I do a shiftless turned shoulder plane I have to release accumulator #4 early and from there on its mostly hands, or so it feels.
I've been experimenting for months now. I don't think I get one single mph extra with a stock TGM stroke. Basically the same distance. But I lose a lot of lag presure through impact and that translates to less consistent ball striking. Direction control may be better but distance control is far worse for me. As far as shot making goes: It just feels like I left the toolbox behind when the hands get to the ball. The closer the hands are to the pivot and the more connected it is, the more I feel like I can use the pivot to support the intended motion - all the way to impact.
Around the green, I usually reduce & freeze accumulator 4, hold on to the club and hit the ball with my feet, or my hip. I stand tall with my chin and my spine is very straight. And I have more bend in the knees than most. Lag pressure control at contact and separation is the key. On my best days I have great control of height and distance on those little shots. And I can feel the result in my hand before the ball has landed.
I never came close to this kind of lag pressure control with the TGM basic motion. To me, the essense of hands controlled pivot is therefore: Sense it through the hands, hit it with the pivot and use your arms and hands for fine tuning.
__________________
Best regards,
Bernt
Last edited by BerntR : 05-13-2010 at 10:22 PM.
Reason: Second thoughts about TGM and hands vs pivot
I can understand where you're coming from. However, I can assure you that there is a lot more arm and hand travel in a Golf Stroke using a Plane Shift than one that doesn't.
The Hand travel distance in a Golf Stroke using a Straight Line Delivery Path is only about 15 inches from bent right Elbow to Both Arms Straight. So basically, the hands don't pass the center of your body until after follow-through while your transitioning into the finish Swivel.
Someone like Yoda or Ted can demonstrate this.
I think you have some misconceptions about these things. Learning from seeing a demonstration would clear these up instantly.
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