I would like to approach this thread further...

Right Forearm Takeaway/Pickup.

ANY onplane backstroke nessesitates the right forearm to lift the secondary hinge in the hinge assembly located at the left shoulder. As the pivot turns, the right forearm lifts up the primary lever assembly and it does this by using the plane line as its guide (tracing along the plane line).

If their was no right forearm 'pickup' on the entire backstroke as the pivot transported the power package, the clubhead wouldn't get 3 foot off the ground if your lucky and would create a very bent plane line.

The ideal is to always maintain its relationship to the plane line, just like it is ideal for a snooker/pool player to maintain the cue on a line straight back and straight through (usually on a vertical plane). With the shoulder turn takeaway - you lose the precision and then you are forced to pick up with the right forearm later in the golf stroke and try to re-establish the plane line. Bad snooker/pool players take it offplane or off line and they usually can never re-establish it - just like it is for hacks at golf...

It has absolutely nothing to do with not cocking the right wrist. It has everything to do with the all encompassing, imperative maintainance of the inclined plane. Those who do not teach the right forearm pickup, do not really teach plane.

I want to FIRST say (so as to make things clear)...

That a RFT is fine (obviously).....see David Toms, Freddie Couples, etc.

....

But what about Hogan, Snead, Nelson, John Daly, Tiger, Phil, Ernie, etc. etc. etc.

(or anyone who anyone would happen to teach who swings with anything other than a RFT and hits it to a tour level...or a level of these guys above)

Would you change them?

I mean, I understand adherance to principle...but man.....you have options....and some things just work. (for some people)

...

The right forearm takeaway has been greatly misunderstood especially by those from the Rocky site via watching Brians very mistaken video on it.

Actually most in that list do actually use the right forearm to pickup the left arm so the secondary lever stays on A plane at startup at varing extents - Tiger and Phil btw are usually perfectly onplane at start-up hence using the plane line as their guide - conciously or subconciously. If you want to take it offplane with a shoulder turn takeaway, read leadbetters "the golf swing"....

Remember its a one piece stroke like an ocean liner. With the shoulder turn takeaway, the stroke goes like this.... Ok I just start back with only my pivot/my shoulders - ok im moving now.... oh wait if I keep doing this I won't hit the ball 20 yards, quick quick Right forearm pick me up....

Ps - another point I want to raise, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with pivot centers

Rocky site lol.

Could you explain the misunderstandings?

Yes I realize the right forearm lifts at some point even in those strokes Matthew....

But those guys do not do a "Right Forearm Pickup" as it's commonly taught and referred to in TGM.

C'mon man....Tiger Woods? John Daly? Phil? etc. etc.

"From Address, lift your right forearm back, up, and in....take the club straight up the Turned Shoulder Plane. (with the right forearm)" (and straight down)

That's what I'm talking about.

...

Now I'm not saying that this kind of stroke (that all those pros use) "IS WHAT YOU MUST TEACH!"...

I'm just saying that it's obviously an option.

The only other justification is that all these guys (Hogan, Snead, Nelson, John Daly, Tiger, Phil, Ernie...+ more) would be much better than they already are. (if their backswings are that inferior)

...

And what I wrote above is how I understand how a "Right Forearm Takeaway" or "Right Forearm Pickup" is normally taught or thought of.

Im doing that with this thread...

Look at this picture of Tiger...



That right forearm has lifted the primary lever assembly via the secondary hinge of the hinge assembly - (btw that isn't a metaphor).... otherwise it wouldn't be onplane...this cannot be done in any ANY other way...

What if I was to say that you could use a right forearm takeaway with any plane shift variation.... The right forearm takeaway is manditory, the plane shift variation is a variation - one that has got its own particular hazards in terms of getting to the turned shoulder plane at the top of the backstroke. You could very well double shift and still use a right forearm takeaway....or quadruple shift for that matter.... you can even cock your right wrist (which alters the forearms relation to the clubshaft) but still the only way that primary lever assembly is going upwards and still maintain the plane of the secondary lever assembly with its straight line relationship to the plane line is via the right forearm picking it up.... Ok so now we got that myth out the way.

The shoulder turn takeaway is not neither advisable or even an orthadox looking procedure IMO and this is not the procedure most commonly used on tour.

We've been here before. We know the "Shoulder Turn Takeaway" Brian teaches is not the one defined in The Golfing Machine, since it does not involve a curved Plane Shift (i.e. Bent Plane Line) when done properly. Do a search on his site.

Confused
 

Guys i use the shoulder turn takeaway cause it gives me a much better feeling of 'swinging' the club back, but surely i can still use the right forearm pickup AS WELL to trace the correct plane line?

I've seen his video clip and he is way way offbase. In it he said that the reason that Homer taught the right forearm takeaway was to not to cock the right wrist... no mention of the onplane functions of the primary lever assembly having to move upwards against the vertical plane of the hinge action (the thing that isn't a metaphor, but defines specific left arm planes). He mentions pivot centers for each, which is a myth that he has created. It is not about what powers what - it is about being onplane or offplane. To be onplane like Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson...etc, that right forearm has to lift the primary lever assembly via the secondary hinge.

It is NOT that weird thing he was doing when demonstrating. Brian is a GSED, and he answered a question based on golfing machine terminology and then got it so wrong...

It is nothing to do with what you may feel powers the backstroke. The pivot is responcible to transport the power package and the right forearm role is to keep the club onplane using the plane line as its guide by tracing along it with the right forefinger. This is the only way your going to be onplane....

In other sports where the plane is easy to see, no one would even be debating. In snooker/pool no one debates whether it is advantageous to take the cue back and through on a straight line however when that plane becomes inclined like in golf suddenly its ok to bring it offplane... and that is nuts!

Ahh, okay i get it.

Cheers.

Guys - If you want to discuss what Brian teaches, please do it on his site where he can defend and clarify the teaching. This forum is about Lynn and what he teaches. Leave the references to how other teachers do it elsewhere please.
Please edit your posts, or PM me and I'll do it.

Thanks,

Bagger

This really has nothing at all to do with what Brian teaches. It however has everything to do with how people view the right forearm pickup due to his influence and how they percieve TGM. I think its a very important issue but edit it if you wish.... just leave in all the technical references.....

Ok fair enough. Good post.

So long as it (RFT), in the way that I always see it used ("Now lift the club up the plane with your r. forearm...") is not the only way. (and not always ONLY with the r. forearm, by itself)

R. forearm lifts in all strokes.

Cool.

It's an important issue, and influences come from everywhere. I'm just asking that you address the issue without disparaging the source. Go to Brians site if you want to debate how he teaches it. I'm only interested in how Lynn teaches it.

No more finger pointing, and it's not going to come from this site. As of last night, Brian has made a commitment to do the same.

Thanks,

Bagger

Im in full agreement with the finger pointing and won't happen again.

That right forearm is very cool indeed :).

I've been trying to show here is the role of the right forearm and its participation at startup controls all three dimensions of the onplane golf stroke simultaneously and its influences on the left arm as the power package is transported.

There is a good discussion of this topic in the Archives "Magic Of The Right Forearm / Elbow Action GM#1" at http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2667 It is my understanding that "tracing" with the right forearm is only useful approaching, at impact, and beyond. In the backswing, once the right elbow starts to bend to raise the club and the right forearm begins to point upward it is no longer a useful toll for tracing. In fact I've never heard of anyone advocating "tracing" in the backswing, the most heard 'tool' for keeping on plane being the "either end of the club is pointing at the plane line, or the club is parallel to it".

Would you please decribe how to lift the right forearm to maintain those pressure points on backswing? Does lifting mean pulling by encircling fingers?

The word lift
 

Interesting post for sure.

I, too, would like clarification about the right forearm lift. By using the word "lift" or "pick up" I'm under the impression that it is a pulling action. What muscles "lift" the right forearm?

Are we leaving the right hand out of the backswing equation in these discussions on purpose? I have a hard time understanding the biomechanics of the RFT when the RH is not discussed. It seems to me that the right forearm/elbow will not bend correctly unless the right hand is bent or bending back.

Also, the picture of Tiger in the takeaway move shows his right arm higher than at address for sure, but this seems to be only an effect of his shoulders/body turning. Whether he is turning the body or moving his hands and arms back to make this happen doesn't matter. But lift or the raising of the forearm just seems to be an effect.

Sorry if I'm not understanding TGM principles correctly, I'm a simple guy with a small vocabulary. Thanks in advance for the claifications.

The right arm is always in a state of extending or trying to become straight which is a non accelerating thrust hence not moving the left arm. You can probably guess this is called extensor action.

The left arm is connected to the left shoulder and can move around this point with its range of motion being spherical. The right forefinger or pp3 traces back this line and then lifts the primary lever assembly upwards on the vertical hinge action plane. Because this plane is inside a sphere and goes through a center point (left shoulder) this means that the upwards motion is circular and because of such, the structure of the right arm has to collapse as this tracing occurs inorder to lift the left arm on this plane. This is the primary cause of loading acc no.1.

It is a three dimensional "Lift." back-up and in all at the same time. You can feel the pull of a REVERSE pp3 on the hands as the clubhead lifts three ways at once.

The first move is - as Yoda says- a clapping motion.

Muscle and Wrist Activity In the Right Forearm Pickup
 

The Left Arm (and Club) is what is being 'picked-up' by the Right Forearm. And this lift is accomplished by the bending of the Right Elbow (7-3) and the use of the Right Deltoid to raise the Right Arm. The active muscle in the Arm action is the Biceps. It is the only time during the Stroke that this muscle is actively employed. In the Downstroke, the Biceps are "completely passive" (2-M-3).

To understand this action, simply extend your Left Arm directly in front of you about chest-high. Grasp your Left Wrist with the thumb and forefinger of your Right Hand. Then, using only your Right Arm (no Left Arm activity) proceed to lift and lower the Left Arm to your heart's content. Notice that the Left Arm is completely passive and the 'work' is being done with the bending Right Elbow (via the Biceps) as the Right Deltoid (Shoulder muscle) lifts the Right Arm. The only differences between this action and your actual Backstroke are (1) you are lifting and lowering in a vertical plane in this drill versus an Inclined Plane in your Golf Stroke and (2) there is no Pivot in the drill and there is in the actual Stroke.

Regarding the Right Hand, Extensor Acton pulls the Clubshaft in-line with the Left Arm, usually during the Start Up. This Flattens the Left Wrist and Bends the Right. This action occurs in tandem with the Right Forearm Takeaway in a true, Three-Dimensional Backstroke (Up, Back and In, simultaneously and On Plane) as the Pivot performs its work (producing the circular motion of the Stroke while maintaing Balance and the stability necessary for a Centered Clubhead Arc).

Do you have a problem with NOT using extensor action, but with a backswing which is indeed a SWING of the arms caused by shoulders throwing them? Or with not using extensor action in the forward press either...? I for one find lifting the arms a very bad idea. My golf swing begins with the weight moving left to create an imbalance, and the energy and trigger that changes cognitive movements into athletic reaction occurs at that moment.

The RFT is the clubhead being moved by the right forearm- not a pivot controlled left shoulder. The RFT is perfect to keep the club on plane without compensation on the down stroke. The right forearm lifts the club simultaneously back, up and in which is the incline plane of the swing. Perfection through geometry. You pick the physics.

A shoulder turn controlled take away can be used- used by millions- but the Hands controlling the pivot of the any golf stroke is ideal.


Extension action is merely a tug on the left arm to start the ignition of a constant left arm radius needed to delivery the clubhead to the ball. I do not feel it is anymore complicated then that. The RFT and extensor action is a match made in heaven. The result is extreme impact- the LOC. Have you heard your balls explode today?

For someone trying this exercise for the first time they will find that even with extensor action applied, the 'passive left arm' tends to bend at the left elbow.

The difference in the golf swing is that there is a pulling action between extensor action and the left shoulder as the body pivot lags the hands, so the left arm is being pulled at both ends, preventing any bending of the left elbow.

The exercise could be modified to include a left elbow locked in place to prevent itself from bending but this would send the wrong message to the brain.

Thank you both. RFT is clear for me now, yea!! :thumright

This discription is clearly a "pulling" action.

What would happen to the left arm in the above drill (hands more belt height) if you "pushed" the left wrist away from the center of the body with the right thumb and forefinger? I find that the left arm raises and extends eliminating any left elbow bend.

Drillin' Down With the Right Forearm Pick-Up
 

Good point, Weightshift. I could have been a bit more precise with regards to the Left Arm, but the question I was answering with the drill focused on Right Arm and Elbow Action and the muscular activity used to motivate them. And that action will be unaffected by a Left Arm that bends a bit.

There is a misconception, however, that Right Arm Extensor Action alone is responsible for the Straight Left Arm. That is not true. There is always a Left Arm Triceps Extensor Action at work as well (12-5-1-#10 and 2-M-3).

So, let's add these two items to the drill's instruction:

1. Straighten -- but do not 'lock' -- the Left Arm with a Left Arm Triceps Extensor Action.

2. Further stretch that Left Arm with a gentle tug of the Right Arm's Triceps Extensor Action. The Right Arm will straighten somewhat, but will remain Bent due to the Checkrein Action (the "leash") of the Left Arm.

My only concern here is that by introducing this new terminology -- Left Triceps Extensor Action -- I am potentially confusing the definition of Right Triceps Extensor Action as the TGM Power Package structural process outlined in 6-B-1-D. However, in my opinion, there is a need to address the Left Triceps role in straightening the Left Elbow, and that is what this term does.

Hi Lynn,

Wouldn't a pushing action of the #2PP against the club grip cause this left arm extensor condition?

spike

No Left Hand In Extensor Action
 

No, Spike, the #1 Pressure Point (the Heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb) applies the Extensor Action of the Right Triceps to stretch the Left Arm. Otherwise, the Left Triceps (no pressure point) is responsible for straightening the Left Elbow.

Other than normal Grip Pressure, the #2 Pressure Point (the last three fingers of the Left Hand) actuates the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Golf Club) only by Centrifugal Force (as passive Clubhead Lag per 10-11-0-2).

Thank you, Lynn!:)

It doesn't just bend a bit, it bends a lot.

You wrote..

I held my Left Arm out in front of me, chest high, with the Left thumb pointing upwards, grasped the Left Wrist with the thumb and forefinger of my Right Hand, right thumb on top, right forefinger below.

Bending the Right Elbow to raise the Left Arm, causes the Left Arm to bend at the Left Elbow in unison with the bending of the Right Elbow. Try it.

Even with Extensor Action i.e. pulling the Left Arm straight out in front of you, with the thumb and forefinger of the Right Hand, it is difficult to prevent some bending of the Left Arm at the elbow.

Another problem is that the Right Forearm is moving in a circular motion, up and down, from level, and the passive Left Arm automatically responds to this shortening radius by bending the Left Elbow, as it has nowhere else to go.

Personally I believe that this exercise is better done with the Left Arm positioned across the chest to the Right, pointing to about 2 o'clock (body facing 12 o'clock). Now exert Extensor Action, the pulling of the Left Wrist towards 2 o'clock by the thumb and forefinger of the Right Hand, at the same time bracing the Left Shoulder against this pull (the Left Tricep action you describe) -- a two-way stretch.

Now the circular motion of the Right Arm as it bends at the Right Elbow, and lifts and lower the Left Arm, allows the Left Arm to also describe a circular motion and resultant bending at the Left Elbow is minimal.

Raise Your Hand
 

Okay, we're making this thing a lot harder than it is. The exercise is simplicity itself -- at least it is when demonstrated -- and I'm afraid that people now will miss the whole point.

The point of the exercise was not to be "golf-like." The point was ...

How does the right arm and elbow act -- and what muscles are involved -- when you pick something up?

So let's just forget the left arm altogether and do a new drill.

Sitting or standing or lying down, just raise your right hand above your shoulder (as if to get a teacher's attention in class). That's the way the right arm works in the golf Stroke. Without of course, the constraints imposed on it by the left arm and the Inclined Plane of motion.

The triceps straighten the arm and the deltoids lift it.

In the Golf Stroke, the Checkrein Action of the Left Arm causes the Right Elbow to bend, and this also brings the Right Biceps into play (on the Backstroke only). So, we have the triceps, biceps and deltoids all involved in an integrated way to transport the Hands -- and the Club they hold -- to the Top of the Stroke.

Triceps and Biceps?
 

Yoda,

I think it is basic anatomy that both triceps and biceps cannot be active at the same time. Is it possible that Right Arm Extensor Action on the backswing is entirely due to right arm fanning?

Scott

Muscle Madness
 

Hi Scott,

I am in no way an expert in in human physiology. However, I can tell you that I apply Extensor Action with my Right Triceps and at the same time experience Right Elbow bend (due to the Checkrein Action of the Left Arm).

Since the Biceps bend the Elbow, I can only conclude that it is possible for both Triceps and Biceps to be simultaneously actuated. Maybe someone more qualified can add insight here.

just raising my hand to get Yoda's attention
 

Yoda, I just think we have to be clear in our descriptions of bodily actions. For example in #24 Mathew wrote..

I don't know if Mathew realizes it but the first sentence uses a double negative and translates to "It has absolutely everything to do with cocking the right wrist." which I am sure was not his intention.

I'll put my hand down now, :) and go back to sleep.

Any start-up that is on any plane requires the right forearm to raise the primary lever assembly. That includes for example - the hands only plane... even with the right wrist being in a cocked state....

My bad with the confusion but not cocking the right wrist might be a positive result that can come of it, but hardly the purpose of the right forearm pickup...

Is "my bad with the confusion" admitting that you used a double negative?

Not So Simple
 

I wholeheartedly agree, Weightshift, and I do my best. It never ceases to amaze me how seemingly simple actions (when demonstrated) can be so difficult to describe in a step-by-step process (especially without the benefit of photos or video, which unfortunately, take time to produce).

Let's Talk Golf...Not Grade Grammar
 

Let it go, Weightshift. You made your point the first time, and Mathew responded in a civil way. This is a Golf Forum, not an English Lit class, and you are not the Grammar Police.

Your critical posts are appreciated when they pertain to golf. They are not appreciated -- nor will they be tolerated -- when they become condescending and mean-spirited.

Now let's get back to helping one another learn more about Golf. :)

This just made lights go off in Bucket's BRAIN CELL . . . I am luuuuuuuuuuuving this post . . .

Boss . . . just to be sure my feeble Pooh Bear brain is on this.

You DO NOT cock the Right Elbow in the Right Forearm Pick Up? You just raise your hand as if "Yo teach!!! I gotta go POTTY!!!!" And because your right arm is connected to your left via the grip . . . your Right Elbow bends/cocks as a result of the Checkrein of the Left Arm?

This is a subtle one. . . hold up gotta bounce I think I hear a FOG HORN!!!!!

Great Post Green Jeans!