Low Point
 

VJ...

How come low point isn't the left shoulder for putting?

You always advocate to put the ball in the middle of the stance...

Here's an illustration from your site that got me thinking about it....the last few animations:

http://theputtingarc.com/page/mh5e/Why_it_Works.html

Does the arc work for the Paw Stroke using Vertical (Only) Hinge Action? I'm asking because the clubshaft (hence sweetspot) does not stay on the Inclined Plane for this stroke.

Thanks.

Look at the shoulders!

The low point can be positioned where you want more or less, but you need to adjust your body.

Ignorance Is Not Bliss
 

No.

Regardless of the Major or Minor Basic Stroke employed, Vertical Only Hinge Action ignores the Inclined Plane.

The Putting Arc® does not.

Thanks Yoda.

I guess Ted (yodasluke) won't be using the Arc then -- not that he needs it anyway!

Birdie Man,

I love the Hendrix Pic. I can still remember listening to "Little Wing" in college.

The reason low point is not the left shoulder during the "shoulder" stroke is because the pivot point (area) is the Thorasic region of the spine. It has very little to do with the left shoulder. If, however, you are using an arm only stroke, Low point is in fact the left shoulder. In this way the bent right arm is driving the lever assemblies down plane to low point.

The animations show this well we feel. I hope this clears up your thoughts.

Also you can think of a pendellum. It will have no lean in the shaft at low point. Now all that matters is where that pendellum is rotating on the body.

vj, can the putting arc be used with the arm only stroke and the shoulders stroke, seeing that the low point is different for each stroke?

The incline swing plane with a Vertical Hinge becomes vertical, no? The swing plane is still there or has it become somethings else?


Hey, stupid questions got me through college- LOL.

Yes...Hendrix IS the man. Little Wing is definately one of my favourites BTW....along with Hey Joe, All Along the Watchtower, etc. Played many an air guitar to thems songs.

.....


Ah yes....shoulder stroke (would that be Accumulator 4?) vs. right arm stroke (Acc. 1 only?).

As explained, by you, in this post:

"Incubate this!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The shoulder only stroke and the arm only stroke. There is no other mechanical stroke which stands up to them. A left arm stroke could be classified, so also a wrist only stroke, as well as a blend of any of the above four. BLENDING is not MENDING so I would stay away from taking any of the two and combining them.

The arm only stroke uses a push or putt basic stroke and the right elbow acts as a piston WHILE the right forefinger traces a straight plane line. The shoulders can move because they are considered a part of the power package as well as the pivot, however it is best to keep them steady as possible. Here the right arm will continue to push, straighten, and trace all the way to BOTH ARMS ARE STRAIGHT. This would have the putter head traveling down/out/and/forward to the low point oppo0site the left shoulder.

The shoulder only stroke utilizes the turning of the shoulders on an incline plane. As with all strokes the hands educate the pivot so tracing a staight plane line, moving the putter head along a plane board (angle) or using a curved device (putting arc) will teach the shoulders to move on an incline plane. The right shoulder must move on plane to keep the putter head moving on plane during the shoulder only stroke.
The shoulder only stroke moves the Thorasic Spinal region, not the lumbar or cerebral. Therefore the low point of the shoulder only stroke would be opposite the Thorasic Region of the spine which is slightly further back than that of the left shoulder.

So low point for the shoulder only stroke and low point for the right arm stroke are different."

From: http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1291


So do you only put the ball in the middle of the stance for a shoulder stroke then?

-Paul

Hinge Action And The Inclined Plane
 

There are three basic Hinge Actions that control the Clubface Motion through Impact -- Horizontal, Vertical and Angled. Horizontal Hinge Action produces a Close-Only Motion of the Clubface; Vertical produces Lay-back Only Motion; and Angled produces a Simultaneous Close-and-Lay-back Motion. Each of these Hinge Actions is produced by maintaining the Flat Left Wrist perpendicular to the associated Plane of Motion through Impact.

With the Short Shots, all three Hinge Actions can be executed in a Vertical -- not Inclined -- Plane of Motion. In other words, the Clubhead can be made to move in a Vertical Plane -- it covers the Plane Line (Up and Back Motion Only, no In) -- while the Clubface either Closes Only (Horizontal Plane of Motion) or Lays-back Only (Vertical Plane of Motion) or simultaneously Closes and Lays-back (Angled Plane of Motion). Since the Plane of the Clubhead Line of Flight is in a Vertical Plane, only one Hinge is required; namely, the Hinge that controls the Clubface alignment.

However, to respect the Inclined Plane -- to move the Clubhead Up, Back and In -- you need a Dual Hinge arrangement. That is, you need one Hinge to control the Clubface (Vertical Hinge for Layback Only or Horizontal Hinge for Close Only) and a second Hinge to control the Clubhead's Inclined Plane of Motion -- the Clubhead Line of Flight (2-N-0).

This Inclined Plane of Clubhead Motion can also be thought of as Clubshaft Control (1-L-A). So, with the Dual Hinge arrangement, the Primary Hinge would control the Clubface and the Secondary (or Strap) Hinge would control the Clubshaft (and enable it to be lowered onto the Inclined Plane). Hence, we find the Dual Horizontal and Dual Vertical Hinge Actions Variations of 10-10-D/E. There is no Dual Angled Hinge Action because only one Hinge -- the Angled Hinge -- is required to control both the Angled Plane of Clubface Motion and the Angled Plane of the Clubshaft.

Now, to your question...

The Putting Arc® discussed in this thread mandates a Clubhead Inclined Plane of Motion. Otherwise, [i]there would be no In dimension on the Backstroke and no Out Dimension on the Downstroke. Hence, the Clubhead would move in a Straight Line -- not a curved one -- and thus leave the face of the device. There would, of course, still be an Arc (unless the Clubhead was kept deliberately parallel to the ground throughout the Stroke), but it would lack the geometric Inward and Outward Dimensions of the Inclined Plane.

The Hinge Action employed must be Compatible with The Putting Arc's Inclined Plane of Motion. Thus, for other than Angled Hinging, either Dual Horizontal or Dual Vertical Hinging is required. However, if the 'hatch mark' Clubface Guides are observed (in addition to the Clubhead Arc) then the device automatically produces Angled Hinge Action. And this, as we've seen, is a single Hinge arrangement.

A final point: When we discuss Hinge Action, the Inclined Plane of Motion is presumed to exist (unless otherwise specified). Hence, in practice, the terms Horizontal Hinge Action and Vertical Hinge Action are deemed to mean Dual Horizontal and Dual Vertical.

I don't want to sound pedantic (:eek:), but:

The pendulum is an example of the Vertical (Only) Hinge Action, hence not compatible with The Putting Arc®.

Birdie Man,

Left to my own sense of geometry which has been given to me through TGM and Lynn, I would place the ball mid stance for the shoulder stroke and Left shoulder for the arm only stroke. Let me clarify that a need for it to be "exact" depends on the person. However, accomplishing a "sameness" here will alleviate any wild "feelings" as the putter head swings down-out-forward to low point and then back-up-in to follow through.

So rough pattern of ball position can be guided in putting by understanding the geometry of the circle. Know where the center of the circe is and this will give you knowledge as to ball position. The radius of this circle will give you knowledge of proper shaft lean and the visual proof of "pendellum" motion in the putting stroke no matter the if the arcing, straight back and through, or any other possible stroke is used.

Vertical Hinge Action 'Illusions'
 

In fact, I was thinking about this in Canton (Three G.O.L.F. Guys School) when Mikestloc (Mike Finney) asked me the exact same question.

Go through this mind experiment with me and you'll understand it! It might cost you a few brain cells, but it's worth it -- trust me.

The Vertical (Only) Hinge Action may best be represented visually by a pendulum. Now, I know the pendulum doesn't contain any pins and hinges, and therefore it isn't a proper Hinge, but the most important thing is that their Basic Plane of Motion are identical -- they both have a Vertical Plane of Motion, e.g. the Wall.

1. Imagine swinging this pendulum -- for example, a string with a weight attached at the bottom -- flat against the wall. Since the wall is also vertical, there should be no conflict -- the pendulum swings beautifully along the wall.
   
   
2. Now imagine the weight has a Clubshaft attached to it. This Clubshaft will not be vertical with the string (although it can be), but instead, it will be at an angle, as if it's on the Inclined Plane.
   
   
3. With the addition of the inclined Clubshaft in Step 2, repeat Step 1.

Nothing has changed -- you are still using a Vertical (Only) Hinge Action even though the Clubshaft is Inclined at an angle!

Now, if you did the step 3 with an imaginery Inclined Plane board lying flat against the Clubshaft, the Clubshaft will not stay on this Inclined Plane while the pendulum / Vertical (Only) Hinge Action is operating. If you wanted the Clubshaft to stay on this Inclined Plane, you would need to use a Dual Vertical Hinge Action, which is not what we're talking about here.

So to summarise:

• Contrary to popular belief, the Clubshaft/Sweetspot angle of inclination does not have to be vertical when using Vertical (Only) Hinge Action. It can be inclined at any angle you want.
  
  
• The Clubshaft never stays 'On Plane' when using Vertical (Only) Hinge Action. The only exception is when the Clubshaft is also Vertical.
  

Why put the ball at low point? What is the reason for doing it? Why does it matter?

All really great questions.:???: So let's get enough information together to allow people to understand where low point is and then you can make the decision.

When the ball is situated perfectly at low point the putterhead is neither moving up or down. It is at its bottom and the center of the putter (in a vertical fashion) will strike the ball equator of the ball. THe shaft here, witout manipulation will be vertical to the ground.

When the ball is situated behind low point the putterhead is moving downwards. Here the upper part of the putterhead (in a vertical fashion) will strike above the equator of the ball. All this holds true without MANIPULATION. Furthermore, the putter shaft will be leaning forward at impact, changing the loft of the putter and the roll characteristics of the ball.

When the ball is situated ahead of low point the putterhead is moving upwards. Here the bottom of the putterface (in a vertical fashion) will strike below the equator of the ball. The putter shaft will be leaning back at impact, changing the loft of the putter and the roll characteristics of the ball.

The changes in shaft lean, and solidness of impact is the reason I CHOOSE not to place the ball TOO FAR from lowpoint. It just opens the door for manipulation. THe importance of low point points to the geometry of the circle and from there anyone can see the true pendellum motion which takes place. Moving the ball around naturally changes the lean of the shaft as it relates to the geometry of the circle.

I hope I have answered the first three questions. Today is October 14 and I would like to extend an offer to any of the forum members. Send me your putting strokes on either VHS, DVD, or mini DV and I will give them a study and send back the changes. There will be no charge to forum members. Unfortunately, I will not except tapes after November 14th.

VJ Trolio
Old Waverly Golf Club
One Magnolia Drive
West Point, MS
39773

Splitting hairs?
 

VJ,

You may have addressed this in another thread or it may be in my Putting Arc instructions. When locating the ball at low point is the "back" of the ball positioned at the low point or the "center" of the ball (or am I just splitting hairs here)?

I can see where the center of the ball at low point would encourage the "contact before low point" that we seek in full strokes.

BTW - I do like my Putting Arc. :)

Comet,

You are definitely splitting hairs. However, if the back of the ball is sitting at low point the putter head will have a shallower angle of attack than if the center of the ball is sitting at low point. Get back to the "hit" as the puttershaft should be vertical at low point and I think you will discover your ball position.

Definitely reference it with the back of the ball. If the back of the ball is at Low Point, then your Angle of Approach would also be your Plane Line for putting (negligible compression, hence Impact = Separation).

Also understand by favoring one side of your body or the other (weight) low point can be moved. For instance if you favor the left leg it is possible your spine or left shoulder to move closer to the target. This would mean a change in ball position is necessary.

Alternatively, favoring the right leg would move it back. So get in front of a mirror and take a look.