Downswing
 

man the archives have tons of info, but lead to questions.

Two things need help with. I am a swinger and have never understood when Yoda talks about the

1. right shoulder gyro to start the downswing. I've seen the video clip, but is it just the shoulder moving down plane?

2.

Here's how to do it: From the Top, Drag Load (7-19) by Pulling the Butt End of the Club toward the Plane Line. Immediately thereafter, begin a Non-Automatic Random Sweep Release (10-24-B) -- later you can 'kick it up a notch' with the Automatic Snap Release of 10-24-E -- by Uncocking your Left Wrist strongly Downward, also toward the Plane Line. That takes only a fraction of a second, and just as soon as you Feel the strong, Downward Uncocking Motion underway, use its momentum to begin the Roll of your #3 Angle On Line through Impact. You've Launched a Three-Stage Rocket: The Drag Load established your initial Thrust; your Uncocking Left Wrist created the highest Velocity you will be able to achieve; and the #3 Accumulator picked up that Velocity and sustained it into Impact.



Now if I get to the top of my swing and want to work on the blackout zone (downswing) how do I and can I blend the two together?

I understand the second part, but it doesn't start with the right should move. Any help is appreciated.

I think Yoda means that the right shoulder starts the gyroscope. The same way, if you were to hold a ball on a string, your right hand would start it (and then keep spinning it). In otherwards, it begins the chain reaction to induce throwout. And most importantly, YES! The right shoulder - from whatever position at the top - moves down plane and begins the sequence of events! (remember, for the right shoulder to move downplane, the hips must clear - and so, they actually move first in preparation).....MY TAKE.

Ok...for #2.

Begin to drag the butt towards the planeline. Now...immediately thereafter, begin to uncock your left wrist and then - begin to roll your forearms so you go through impact fix to both arms straight. Now....here's the good news. You can practice the above as part of your downswing waggle!!!

Drag - uncock - roll - both arms straight!!!

How do I make sure my shoulder is going downplanee properly. There really isn't a check for that is there?

Sure there is!

A video camera from down the line. And dont be afraid to work on pivot controlled motions - take that right shoulder and drive it towards the ball, of course, also intermittently concentrating on the hands til it becomes 'automatic'.

-Patrick

Theoretically, the Right Shoulder should go downplane from the Top. However, after looking at many photos of pros at Impact, their Right Shoulder is almost always above Plane (above the in-line relationship of the Clubshaft and Right Forearm at Impact). It has occured to me that one needs to drive their Right Shuolder down a lot (maybe with more axis tilt?) in order to get into this On Plane position at Impact.

Any ideas?
Anyone got photos where the at Impact, you can draw a stright line from Sweetspot, Pressure Point #3 and throught the Right Shoulder (i.e. everything On Plane)? I know there is a posed photo in the book where Diane does that (sorry, haven't got book with me, but I think somewhere in 10-13).

Tong,
I am not sure Homer ever said the right shoulder is onplane at impact. I recall the statement of moving downplane lending the best support.

Far as I know Homer advocated a square or slightly open position at impact when pressed on the subject.

I think more importantly - from whereever the stroke ends, the right shoulder moves downplane initially.

Whatcha think?

The "On Plane" Downstroke Shoulder Turn was recommended by Homer per Basic Patterns 12-1 and 12-2. Look at the photo in 10-13-D #3. The arrow is trying to show that the Right Shoulder is On Plane even to the End of Follow Through. Note that I'm assuming if the Shoulder is On Plane at the Top (10-13-D #2) and also On Plane at Follow Through (10-13-D #3), then it must be On Plane in between these two Sections also.

I know it also says "when the Shoulder can't quite reach the Plane, it is better to use a steeper Plane". I'm trying to say that almost everyone uses a steeper Plane after studying many photos of pros (I excluded anyone using a Double Shift since they will be using the Elbow Plane, so the Right Shoulder will obviously not be On Plane).

Ok....ok. Good lord am I rusty. I was looking at it from a different point of view, and good call on your part!

Ok...let me try again...

That is one helluva question! I am looking at Els - and yes, his right shoulder is steeper... hmmm....same with Davis, Tiger, Norman.


Can anyone say from #3 accumulator? Just a guess....

Finally...!
 

Finally found one:

12-1 and 12-2 technically refer to 10-13-A, or Standard. A combination of 10-13-B and 10-13-D. So...at the top, you would have 10-13-B per 12-1 and 12-2.

Secondly...the arrow indeed is to indicate the right shoulder is on plane at the follow through - and though the pictures are to represent only that specific component, its easy to see that Diane has Zero #3 accumulator. Envision her adding it there - and if she did, there would be no way her right shoulder would be onplane.
I agree. My point was #3 accumulator - and if the amount of #3 accumulator is greater then the amount of axis tilt, seems to me it is nearly impossible to anatomically have the right shoulder onplane at impact. Both arms straight is an entirely different story....

Also. In 10-13-D, Homer never says the right shoulder is onplane at impact. He says AFTER A 10-13_B or 10-13-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the right shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, establishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments"

I believe the follow through is only merely to show what 'onplane' means...not necessarily to infer the right shoulder is onplane at impact. Especially considering he never states that.

8-7, the Start Down, specifically implies it is the period in which the initial move towards impact.

I am of the opinion that, while we have to sift through the rubble, Homer was more concerned about the initial move down then he was on the location of the right shoulder at impact. Although I could see - with minimal #3 accumulator and alot of axis tilt, it reaching the plane at impact.

Its a great question Tong, really is. And appears to be a puzzle we need to put together. Thoughts?


That doesnt look like a true down the line pic to me - it is slightly angled, plus it also looks like he is at low point.

I have some pics -Els, Love, Normal, Tiger...just need some help posting them. All have their right shoulder steeper then the shaft at impact.

Before we go further...

Yes! That is why I said emphasised the word Downstroke in my last post! In fact, the photo in 10-13-D #2 is suppose to illustrate the same point as the one in 10-13-B #2, in the sense that they both represent a 10-13-B backstroke shoulder turn (even though 10-13-D #2 can also represent a 10-13-C backstroke shoulder turn, but it doesn't. Hope that doesn't confuse anyone!)

There is Accumulator #3 in the photo of 10-13-D #3! This is because the Right Forearm is On Plane (and as long as the grip is in the cup of the right hand, regardless of wrist condition) and by definition the Left Arm cannot be On Plane at the same time.

Sorry. My point is....and I should have been more specific (regardless of your emphasis on the downswing), you stated this:

When it is actually a dual of B and D.

But..hey,lets not quibble. (Picture in 10-13-D # 2 is NOT the same as 10-13-B #2).

Hang on...shaking my head. Now, I may not be the sharpest guy online, but this is alot!!!

First. By my visual at least ( and hey - anyone else chime in please!), I see 0 # 3 in pictures 1 and 3 and minimal, if any in #2.

Now....lets make sure we are on the same page.

Per 6-B-3-0, Power Acculumator #3 is formed by the angle established between the clubshaft and the left forearm

Now....and everyone follow along...

In 10-13-D, I cannot see the left arm. In 10-13-D, I can. In my mind, there is no accumulator # 3. Which goes back to your original question. And I believe I answered it sufficiently.

And you also said this:
First. left forearm is higher in #3. Second...why by definition can the left arm and right arm not be on plane???? Because of the grip (cup)???

Sorry for not being clear!

During Follow Through, there can be an instant where there is Zero Accumulator 3, in which case the Right Forearm and the Left arm can both be On Plane at that moment.

With the existence of Accumulator 3, it is not possible for both the Right Forearm and Left Arm to be On Plane at the same time.

10-13-D-2 is the same as 10-13-B-2 in the sense that it includes the situation depicted in 10-13-B-2. They are both trying to show the same thing.

(I have forgotten what the oringal discussion was...!)

When does an accumulator cease accumulating?
 

Wouldn't a power accumulator past impact and into full extension be a misnomer? I know that the definition states that it is an out of line condition, but shouldn't that only fairly depict pre-spent and zeroed out
conditions? Just curious...and seriously just a matter of semantics, but it seems as if we could pick nits into infinitum.

EC

Our discussion was about Accumulator #3, which should never be out-of-line, unless you have a Bent Left Wrist.

(Like I said, I seem to have forgotten what the original discussion of this thread was about! :o )

please please
 

Please Leo, when you come to the States again, will you a Philly sit in front of my camera and let me tape both of you as you talk to each other about the book??? I find the two of you kindred souls sharing a unique passion for The Golfing Machine. It would be very interesting to watch and listen to you both explore the book.

Think about it.

Post separation accumulators standing in the unemployment line...
 

Tong, Philly,

Sorry for my Seinfeldian observational attempt. Since you guys had already strayed off topic, I just thought I would have a little fun and could not help imagining a coffee shop scene between Jerry and George debating what you might call a spent or released accumulator.
( By the way, I am aware that accumulator #3 is best served when it is in line radially via the flat left wrist or its equivalent and that it is only in line linearly when it is zeroed out.)

In the future, I'll keep my clumsy humerous thoughts where they belong...in the deep recesses of my somewhat cluttered mind.


Peace,

EC

LOL...spontaneous random comments contribute to the livelihood of this place!

My man Tong!

Me too....

Love your posts, dont get me wrong. Just wanted to pry some! :)

Let's move on...love the book, love the discussion....

Patrick

Mike!

I am up for it!

Of course...when in Ireland in March, maybe me and Tong can set something up!!!

You're invited!

EC,
Do I know you?

Good call. And yes...I got.

Now...did Carolina beat the Flyers Friday??? OUCH!

Patrick

Send me a email when the time comes. :p