Homer's two gifts... and two pivot centers
 

Talked to Lynn yesterday.

Here is what we are 100% in agreement on (very important)...

Homer Kelley gave us TWO very important gifts:

1. A SYSTEM that explains ALL methods.

&

2. Homer's preferences (method).

Two patterns that are as close to ideal as is possible, PLUS ideas like the tripod and right forearm pickup, that would allow you the best chance to perform these patterns.

IDEAL? What Homer meant by ideal was this: Best place to START for a hitter or a swinger, while also being MOST interchangeable. Also most GEOMETRICALLY sound. Not longest hitting or best performance (that would be the four-barrel pattern from the 3rd edition). Just two patterns that Homer felt COULD BE DONE BY MOST GOLFERS easily and THEN customize.

So, where does this leave us with our "pivot center" debate?

They are both in book.

Lynn allow for both but prefers one.

Brian teaches both.

A'int The Golfing Machine great??

Okay when all is said and done...??

I still have questions that have gone unanswered.

1. This 'Tripod' concept, where is it in the book (I obvously have missed it, bad Martee).

2. This 'Tripod' has been shown as a triangle on photos and diagrams. It is always or at least appears to be drawn as an isosceles triangle (2 sides of equal length, thus placing the apex in the center of the base). Is it really an isosceles triangle?

3. A 'Tripod' indicate 3 legs, where is the third leg? Bi-pod seems to be the percise and correct term or triangle.

4. How did it come about to state the center of the pivot center was to be in middle of the stance? Or was it to be between the two feet (not going to the outside, etc.)?

5. The neck as the pivot center, indicates that the head can move. Is the movement of the head restricted to
a. Rotation around this pivot center point (same as it is with a stationary head)?
b. Back and forth motion with the pivot center point stationary?
c. Side to side motion (Bending ear to shoulder) with the pivot center point stationary?
d. At not time should the head movement, of any kind, move the pivot center point?

6. The Determination of where the pivot center point for either the head or neck is, defined by Impact Fix?

7. In use of either reference points, movement of the pivot center from the Address position to Impact Fix is acceptable? Is it desireable? Is this something that is a personal trait or preferrence of the golfer or golf instructor?

8. The Pivot Center Point can be moved by the pivot and still be considered stationary?

It is difficult to see value in the neck over the head when it is not clear, at least to me, how the neck reference provides something that the head doesn't.

I stated earlier in another thread of some of the benefits of the stationary head
a. Balance factor
b. Visual reference

I am looking for the value, how both accomplish the same, and as you had pointed out in another thread how you have discovered that based on a certain observed characteristics (flight line to the right, etc.) that you select one over the other.

Thanks to all in advance for some replies.

Roadblock
 

I have re-written this post 4 times because I am not able to express what I feel inside needs to be said.

It would appear that the answers to Martee's questions are a major sticking point to any further TGM learning. The forum appears "stuck".

In my own case, someone needs to produce video that answers and demonstrates what everyone is trying to say. We don't need anything professional - garage video without train and traffic noise (like the last Tomasello videos)would suffice.

Some of us learn better with visuals, some need audio only. The written word has been overdone. Kill the other 2 learning styles with some video.

validity versus verbage
 

1. Hopefully, it's in the upcoming 7th edition. It's in Homer's notes.

2. It would seem to require a centered head, if it's an isosceles triangle.

3. This is a point that I made with Yoda about six months ago.

I've had the privilege of traveling with Yoda to many of our golf schools around the country. During some of the long flights, I have the opportunity to be grilled (interrogated) about TGM (which I love and requires the wearing of a seatbelt). The questions come a mile a minute. And additionally, I get the opportunity to watch Yoda make his notes about changes that need to be made in the book. I wish that Yoda had been consulted about changes that needed to be made, before the 7th edition hit the presses.

Off to some lessons...

Drive a stake and add two legs...voila!
 

Dear Martee,

I believe the answer to your question can be found in the 1-L sketch.

The stationary post is the player's head.

If we can imagine now, a stake driven through our head and back (spine)right into the ground, then that is the stationary post in the drawing....which incidentally promotes a stationary head per 2-0-A-1.

Why the stake driven through the head and the spine?

Per 7-9 "...with the back straight from the neck down - not rounded at the waist. It is easier to control the rotation of a straight rod than a bent one."

Add our two legs and voila...that is the tripod.

Sorry, and no disrespect, but this is a canned answer in general.

I understand the 1-L-1 along with other reference regarding the stationary post as well as the reference 2-H that states that it is not mandatory.

If in fact what you describe as the Tripod and this imaginary line is the thrid leg, I would submit
a. This doesn't by definition mean it is in the center
b. If it does mean center then we are talking two legs being equal to for an isoscele triangle, which would then place the apex in the center creating two rt triangles when a line is extended from the apex to the base.
c. Tripod gives the indication of 3 supporting points required. Having the third point lie between the other two doesn't meet the criteria for a tripod.

The really strange thing to me is that this would mandate a position vs an alignment.

Thanks for the insight.

Well unless someone can describe and show this tripod, I hope it didn't make it into the next edition. Without ample text and/or diagram(s), this will be something every anti-TGMer grabs onto and makes a big deal.

Wonder if Homer had a definition in the glossary for this? The current definition of Pivot Center doesn't support this concept.

Thanks again, awaiting answers...

Reprise -- The Pivot Swing Center Tripod
 

Homer Kelley introduced the Pivot Swing Center Tripod concept in his additions to the as-yet-unpublished 7th edition. Previous editions had only the photo sequences of 9-1 and 9-2 where a white reference marker was placed behind the head to show its centered location.

I quoted that concept a few days ago in the Forum TGM Advanced and the thread 9-1-5...Pics, my post #143. Here it is again:

"The important thing is that the true Swing Center -- for all components -- is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time."

So, the top of the Tripod is the Stationary Head and the base consists of the two Feet and the centered Hinge Pin falling precisely between them.

Thanks, need to look at those notes, it has been a long time.

So the answer to #1 is that this is in the upcoming edition (ted indicated such).

The definition or descriptive text doesn't meet the definition of a tripod (a three legged support). Any attempt to use a line down to the base line (line between the feet) is not a leg but bisecting line (three is a name for this, I can't recall) which divides the base line into two equal segments. Now if this bisecting line forms two rt triangles on the base, then this is an isoscele triangle, otherwise it is just a non right triangle. There is no requirement that I know of that would make this an isosceles triangle, since you can bend the knees, spread the feet, all of which will move the apex, the pivot center and change the length of lines between the feet to the apex.

The defintion or descriptive text does define the pivot center to between the feet, in the middle.

This being defined to be percisely between the feet, well it is troublesome, it seems to me that ball position, feet separation, etc all seem to take on more a standard position based on this defintion.

Did Homer update or change the glossary to add some words to explain this 'tripod'?

This is confusing, Homer did what I thought was a great job on explaining and showing the 'Triangle Assembly', I would think that this would merit the same level of detail.

Homer's Tripod And Yoda's Concept
 

You're right, Martee, it would have been helpful had Homer provided more detail. Unfortunately, he left us only with the quote that was to be added to 2-H (Shoulder Motions). Also, in the 7th edition revisions, we find a note in 7-12 where he said simply, "present Pivot Swing Center Tripod." While there were a number of revisions to The Glossary, none referred to the Tripod.

Regarding the isoceles triangle, that is my own concept. Homer states in 1-L #21 that "The relation of all Machine positions and motions can be described by a geometric figure." I used the triangle to describe relationship of the centered Head to the Feet. This description is supported by Homer's Pivot Swing Center Tripod concept and the photos in 9-1 and 9-2. Certainly, the relationship is not the near-right triangle so often seen when the player hangs his head well back in the stance, sometimes even over the right foot.

Ben Hogan's Tripod Concept
 

As we discuss Homer Kelley's Tripod concept, it is interesting to note that Ben Hogan had one, too. He wrote about it in his book, Power Golf:

"When I have taken up what I consider the ideal position for hitting a golf ball, I feel as though I were a tripod with my two feet and the clubhead as the three points of contact with the ground."

"While that is the best comparison I can think of to describe my position at the ball, it isn't entirely correct. The weight of a tripod is evenly distributed between its three points of contact with the ground, but in the ideal position at the ball the weight is evenly distributed between both feet."

"None of your weight should rest on the clubhead point of contact. That will be true if the weight is back though the heel as it should be. You should never feel that the weight is forward on your feet if you have taken up the correct position."

While this concept is not the same as Homer's, it does support another very important TGM concept, namely, Foot Loading at Address. The loading should be "an even distribution [of the weight] between both Feet but with enough on the heels to allow the toes to be lifted momentarily without altering the distribution between the toe and heel" (7-17). This was controversial at the time, because Golf Digest and the very high profile instructors at their schools were promoting a loading toward the balls of the feet. Their example was always the baseball player positioned to move either way. Of course, these players are not counterbalancing the pull of centrifugal force, either!

Anyway, I find all this fascinating. As with books on investing in the stock market, some of the best on golf are also the oldest. It's a Back to the Future kind of thing.

I'm sure I'm not alone
 

We've had a lot of discussion about what Brian and Lynn teach or prefer and what Homer wrote about regarding the 2 pivot centers.

I really need someone to explain and show me the difference between the base of the neck or the head being the centers of the pivot.

I kind of get the "head" - everything turns below it while the head remains stationary.

I don't get the "base of neck". My head is attached to the base of the neck and I don't know how to seperate them, I'm not convinced it can be done physically.

I'm assuming we are simply talking about a "feel" here and not a true physical difference in the two pivots. If there is a true difference then I'd like to see it.

You are asking some of the same questions I have. That is why I asked about movement regarding the head when neck is used, etc.

Right now Yoda has me digging on this tripod concept.

I was hoping Brian would come in and answer the questions I asked regarding the neck as the stationary pivot center.

Maybe you will have better luck.

I am in West Palm Beach, Florida doing a privtae school.

I will post VIDEO of this on Monday night.

The Tripod's Three Points Of Support
 

With his words "precisely between the feet," I believe Homer was talking about a face-on view, not down-the-line. The Waist Bend locates the Head outside the vertical plane of the Feet. The hinge pin through the Head to the ground would establish the "three supporting points" you mention.

My own 'Isoceles Triangle' concept uses the triangle as the geometric figure describing the relationship of the centered Head to the Feet. It is not a graphic representation of the Tripod itself.

If I am visualizing this correctly, the hinge pin throug the head, nah, I am not.

What I was visualizing was the the hinge pin from the head down through the spine. This can't be cause the hip motion (shifting and possible turning) would move that line, saying it started in the center, it certainly would be their at impact.

Maybe the Hogan concept is more accurate and in line with what Homer was leaning too. After all Hogan didn't say it had to support weight, merely make contact with the ground.

I think the last statement is important because I gathered a number of readers were seeing the triangle as the tripod. A sidenote, one of the pictures in one of the thread on this topic that was using the triangle, failed to take into account the slope or camera angle and cause the apex of the triangle to be placed outside the head. I am still working through this with the triangle and effect the stance width has on it with regards to its relationship to the ball position. Also this would seem to define a limit or a check point for when the hip slide goes beyond a certain point as it would move the apex cause of the shortening of the right side and axis tilt.

Still very rough..

So the visualization I should have would be
a. A line from the left foot/leg to the base of the skull
b. A line from the right foot/leg to the base of the skull
c. A line from the base of the skull ???? (This is the hinge, it rotates around the spine, so does it follow the spine?)

Sorry for being so dense on this and a pain...

Edited



L1, L2 or L3(The Hogan Concept)? or should I toss this and start all over again in search of the third leg?

More Hula Hula
 

And don't forget, Martee, the Tripod exists despite any Body movement between the Head and Feet. Per Homer Kelley:

"The important thing is that the true Swing Center -- for all components -- is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time."

This is the Hula Hula Flexibility of 7-14.

This would make it a Horizontal Hinge Pin (Perpedicular to the ground) at all times no matter what components/variations have been selected.

Makes me wonder if in fact Homer did select his words carefully and meant actually in between the feet. I say this cause he states between the feet and doesn't care if you have an open, closed or square stance. Had he stated horizontal to the ground, it would have had a different meaning.

I assume that we are talking the alignment wrt Impact Fix.

I can't recall the golfer, from the 30s I believe talked about using a plumb line attached to the head and swinging and it was to remain in place....

Obviously I have more to understand on this.

Message in a Can...
 

No worries Martee, I make no apologies for the "canned answer". In fact, I take that as a compliment as I strive not to go outside of the book for answers.

I also realise that I am not the sum total of knowledge and I always look forward to correction...good golfing!:)

This 'up from ground hinge pin' could easily be through the base of the neck.

Another factor is whether or not the head will wind up 'behind the ball,' something else Homer thought should happen.

Base of Skull (if that is what Homer used as definition, this where all head motion on it own originates from)

Base of Neck (difference may be minor depending on the head orientaion which means it would only change the position on the ground by less than a few inches)

Interesting, this really coming down to an attempt to define a Fix Point in space that is sort of (words choosen carefully) independent of the body, but yet required percision to support proper and correct geometric alignments....

The Vertical Hinge Pins Of The Golfing Machine
 

Martee,

I know what you are saying here, and I'm not trying to be picky, but since you have raised the issue, I do think it is important to get it exactly right.

The Pivot Center hinge pin is vertical -- not horizontal -- to the ground. Its purpose is to anchor the Pivot, not to produce a specific plane of motion. Thus, it is not analagous to the Hinge Assembly of 1-L #4 and 2-G that controls the Clubface and Clubshaft and their respective planes of motion.

That Hinge Assembly contains two vertical pins, one to control the Clubface and one to control the Clubshaft. The Clubface Control pin is positioned vertical (perpendicular) to one of the three Basic Planes -- Horizontal, Vertical or Angled -- in order to produce a specific Clubface Motion (Close only, Layback only or simultaneous Close and Layback). The Hinge Assembly is then named according to plane of Clubface motion it produces, i.e., Horizontal, Vertical or Angled. In each case, though, the hinge pin itself is vertical to its Associated Plane.

The Clubshaft Control pin is likewise positioned vertical, but only to the Vertical plane. This pin permits the Clubshaft to be lowered (vertically) from either the Horizontal or Vertical Clubface Control Hinge onto the Inclined Plane. No such pin is necessary for the Angled Hinge Assembly because that arrangement automatically produces an On Plane Clubshaft.

The Left Wrist also contains a vertical hinge pin, and it is for Clubhead Velocity Control. It is positioned vertical to the Vertical plane and permits the perpendicular Cocking and Uncocking of the Left Wrist (2-K #5). It does not permit any Left Wrist horizontal motion, i.e., Bending or Arching. However, it does permit Left Wrist rotational motion as produced by the swivel action of the Forearm (2-K #4).

So, in The Golfing Machine®...

There are no horizontal pins.

There are no angled pins.

There are only vertical pins.

I agree need to be correct..

No Horizontal pins, I stated Horizontal Hinge Pin, 1-L is labeled Horizontal Hinge Pin...Now I am really confused, cause I went to 1-L and used the percise terms/words that are in the book.

I did note that the pin itself was perpendicular to the ground cause we had this dicussion on hinge pins and vertical before, where my preferrence is to use perpendicular cause of it normal reference of the word vertical and horizontal.

So you are telling me that my label is incorrect? If so then my use of 1-L was totally misplaced...and .... I really need help here. The label on 1-L is rather clear to me...

Clearing The Hinge Pin Fog
 

I understand your confusion, Martee, and it gets worse...

In addition to the Horizontal Hinge Pin label you see on Sketch 1-L, you also see an Angled Hinge Pin. The labels are indeed clear, and they are seemingly in direct conflict with my post stating there are only vertical pins. What's going on here?

The key is in how you read the words:

HORIZONTAL HINGE pin...the (vertical) pin of the Horizontal Hinge. Not a HORIZONTAL hinge pin.

ANGLED HINGE pin. The (vertical) pin of the Angled Hinge. Not an ANGLED hinge pin.

:cool:

Great Illustration, Martee!
 

Martee,

I think you are really on the right track here with your illustration of the Pivot Swing Center Tripod. It is the first time anything like this has been done, and I commend you for it.

Based on the logic of our prior posts, please re-label the Horizontal Hinge Pin to Pivot Center Hinge Pin and repost. Thanks!

PS I really think that Homer's incubator ultimately would have given him the Pivot Stroke Center Tripod (for consistency with the Swing and Hit differentiation) but, oh well...

To the thief on the cross:

I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

vs.

I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Drawing updated, at least I understand what is being said, still think 1-L needs some work...

Looking For A Few Good Men
 

Better than that, RBG, we've put up some Ted Fort footage recently scrubbed by a proficient member and marked with his Stationary Head. http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...8595#post18595

That would be Stationary Head.

As in...

STATIONARY HEAD.

The First Essential (2-0-A-1).

now we are getting somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

great discussion guys. this is going to the cusp of the problems i feel are associated with the golfing machine models. specifically with the axis is rotation of the shoulders turn component and its relationship to the ball location and the the corressponding axis tilt. all the best