Right forearm takeaway
 

I've begun to use the right forearm takeaway for my full swings. However, I don't see how it could be used for the basic stroke or the acquired stroke. Am I correct about this, or do those of you who are more skilled use some sort of abbreviated RFT for these shorter strokes? (I should add that I try to use a swinging feel for all of my strokes). Thank you.

teach

P.S.- Bucket, the book you recommended just arrived from Amazon, along with a blues DVD that I ordered. Golf and blues: what a combination!

Gettin' It Back
 

teach,

If you are not using the Right Forearm to take the Club away in the shortest Strokes...

What are you using?

Do you need to go to the office young man !!???!!!
 

Teach,

Head to the Archives . . . you must find the Magic of the Right Forearm Primer. It will change your life . . . FOREVER!!! Some of Collards & Hock's best STUFF. Nobody teaches the Wedges like the LGM.

You're gonna dig Pia's book.

Now off to the Archives young man . . . or you'll be required to stay after class and pick gum from underneath desks!!!

Re: Gettin' it back
 

Yoda,

Your question actually confounded me. I had to get a club that I keep behind my couch to test this. It seems that for the two-foot back and two-foot forward motion of a short chip that I move the triangle of my arms and the club as a unit. To answer your question literally, I guess that both of my arms take the club away. At this time, my understanding of the right forearm takeaway is that it is a simultaneous upward and backward motion, as if I were bending my right elbow to take an oath. Is this correct? If so, I don't see how this could be executed with the extremely short length of a greenside chip, assuming that I am trying to buid a swinging procedure for all shots. I do see how a short RFT would be fine if I wanted to use a mini hitting procedure for chipping, but my logic is that I should swing for all strokes before I begin to mix procedures. Is either my thought process or execution incorrect in your view?

As for the acquired motion that I would use for pitches, I have also been using both arms to take the club away until I get to the "toe up" position. I just experimented with this and do see how I could use an abbreviated RFT for this shot.

I absolutely see that mastering these shorter swings will help me develop my full swing, so I value any assistance that you and the forum members can provide.

Thank you very much.

teach

Teach,

Learn to use your Right Forearm Flying Wedge on the HORIZONTAL PLANE (like baseball) . . . This should help from the archives:

keeping your On Plane Right Arm Flying Wedge Intact and on a Horizontal Plane.

Shift your Body into its Impact Fix Alignments.

Keeping your Right Forearm Flying Wedge intact -- that means Right Wrist Bent and dowel parallel to the floor (or ground) -- move the Club into an On Horizontal Plane Backstroke by Bending your Right Elbow.

From there, move the Club into an On Horizontal Plane Downstroke STRAIGHTENING YOUR RIGHT ARM WHILE KEEPING YOUR WRIST BENT. Do this over and over and over and over and over.

Look, Look LOOK to make sure there is ABSOLUTELY NO FLATTENING OF THE RIGHT WRIST!!! IT MUST REMAIN IN ITS BENT AND LEVEL CONDITION.

Then drop your Right Forearm Flying Wedge onto the Inclined Plane and REPEAT THE EXACT SAME MOTION. Do this over and over and over and over and over. Bend the Right Elbow. Straighten the Right Elbow. Keeping the Right Wrist Bent.

Alternate back and forth between Horizontal Plane practice and Inclined Plane Practice. Listen to the dowel Swish as you Straighten the Right Elbow. Do this every day until further notice.

The key alignment that is overlooked is LEVEL. Everybody can get the Bent part wrt/ the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. But if your Right Wrist ain't LEVEL . . . you ain't got no wedge!!! Never Never Never COCK your Right Wrist. The Right Wrist DOES NOT take the club UP . . . keep your head betwixt your feets . . . keep your Right Wrist LEVEL and BENT . . . take the club UP Plane with your Right Forearm by BENDING your elbow.

Unfortunately the PIC are NO LONGER THERE!!!

Trig . . . Can we fix the Magic of the Right Forearm Primer pics? They are TOO GOOD to not be out here SOMEWHERE . . .

I think I know what you mean Teach...

ESPECIALLY with short strokes.

I cannot chip well if I feel like I SOLELY use my right forearm to take the club away (as the first move)....although the concept has been absolutely amazing for my putting (I did a post in the puttin' section a while back).

In my full swing, and especially chip/pitch shots, I like to focus on my left shoulder/chest connection (PP #4)....I turn back and simultaneously add Extensor Action with my r. forearm.

R. forearm alone feels too flimzy.....just not right to me....to have to switch from taking it back with the r. forearm to pulling downward with the left shoulder beginning in the Start Down and into the Down Stroke. Dunno....it just has never jived for me.

...

What you have to understand though....is that when people say "Right Forearm Takeaway" or w/e.....really, even if you feel it in your left shoulder as the first move.....something is lifting the club to the top. And THAT is exactly what the right forearm's job is....and to add Extensor Action.

I'll use the same example comdpa used a while ago on Chuck's forum...

Imagine your arms are ropes. They are attached to a club. Now....imagine what would happen if you simply turned your shoulders to take the club back........it wouldn't work too well.

In order to get the club off the ground and anywhere near "the plane" (Turned Shoulder Plane) the right forearm lifts....whether you are aware of it or not.

Re: Archives and basic swinging procedure
 

Bucket,

Thank you for your excerpt from the archives. Can you tell me where on the archives you found this? I did a search for "magic of the right forearm primer," and did not see a post with that title.

Also, my interpretation of the section on the downstroke is that it describes a hitting procedure. Am I correct about this? If so, what would be the procedure for a swinger's chip?

I won't see any responses until tomorrow because I'm going offline now, but I appreciate all of the help that I'm getting.

teach

I had to dig deep to find it in the Golfing Machine section. There used to be some AWESOME pics. I'll check the Chuck Evans part. That's where it got started I believe.

As to "Is this Hitting?" Naw sir. Swingers have the SAME Right Forearm Flying Wedge Alignment with the mandatory Bent and Level Right Wrist. It is just how this assembly is driven that makes it Swinging or Hitting. Swinging the Right Forearm is INDIRECTLY DRIVEN into impact via CF and the Flywheel. Where as, with hitting the Right Forearm is DIRECTLY driven via the Right Tricep. But EITHER WAY . . . IT GET's DRIVEN.

Teach
I send you a personnal message with attached file (Word file)
You will have Yoda's post (Flying wedges . A photo tour ) wit all the 11 photos. Let me know if it is OK.
Sorry not to include the photos in this message , but it was too difficult.
If anybody else need the photos , let me know.
PM

back in black...
 

The images have been restored in this post:

<a href="/forum/showthread.php?t=2667&">Magic of the Right Forearm</a>

It's magic (Right Forearm Takeaway)....
 

Hmmmmm I have always used right forearm takeaway for everything...

Right Forearm Takeaway with extensor action with stage one (putting and chip shots with an iron) and three stage (all full shots with Hitting or Swinging)...

Right Forearm Takeaway with full sweep loading stage one and two...

DG

still fogged in
 

I wonder if I don't understand what a right forearm takeaway is. To me, it refers to bending the right elbow upward while doing nothing with the hands and wrists. In other words, while retaining the right arm flying wedge. Am I correct about this? I just sudied the picture (Thanks, Ben), "Flying Wedges Assembly in Startup," however, and I don't see any bend in the right elbow.

On page 226, Homer describes the basic motion as being, "about two feet in both directions." So do all of you bend your right elbow very slightly on your chipping backstroke and then pull with your left arm on the very short downstroke to get a swinging feel? I'm realizing as I type this that a further part of my confusion is that I'm learning to use centrifugal force in order to swing. However, in a chip, there really is no centrifugal force, right?

Finally, for now, I think that the fog would be cleared in 10 seconds if I were able to see a slow-motion video clip of a swinger's chip that uses the RFT. I have seen videos of Bobby, Ben, Brian, Mike Jacobs, and Rick Nielsen, and all seem to my untrained eyes to use an abbreviated shoulder turn takeaway for their chipping. I fervently hope that Yoda will cover this when his DVD comes out.

Thank you all once again for your help.

teach

P.S.- Birdie_man, once I straighten this out, I'll look into your post on putting. Right now, I can't visualize how RFT could be used for putting either, but that's obviously because my coconut is missing something.

In short Teach, all it is is you tracing the Plane Line with your Right Forearm. Instead of rocking your shoulders or w/e.....you use your R. Forearm. Works great for me.

teach,

Have you factored in Extensor Action ?

In a proper set up, the flying wedge assembly will result in some degree of bend in the Right Arm at Address. Extensor Action is the effort to straigten your Right Arm more than what it is at Address. However, the Left Arm acts as a rein ["checkrein", as Mr. Kelley termed it in the book] that prevents the Right Arm from straightening all at once. Instead, the Right Arm straigtens gradually as the Left Arm goes from Address to the Top of the Backstroke. Similary, the Right Arm gradually straightens as the Left Arm moves down, out and forward through Impact.

This is why the Right Elbow will not bend as much on a chip or putt as opposed to a pitch or full swing. The great thing is that you don't have to worry about it. The reining action of the Left Arm does it automatically -- as long as you employ Extensor Action!

Thank you
 

rwh,

Thanks for your reply. I will experiment with extensor action tomorrow. Unfortunately winter has now arrived and I will have to work on everything indoors for a while. Maybe that's a good thing, as I can just concentrate on the proper motions without the ball interfering.

teach

Somewhere out there?
 

Just ambling through and stumbled on this...are these pictures still out there somewhere?

And I encountered this because it was among "New Posts". I got curious because in my putting I use a cross handed grip (left hand low) but I assume that RFT is still the way to go, despite the grip?

Also, PP#3 isnot on the shaft with a cross hand grip. Is that a no-no? Will I need to change grip, or is it acceptable that PP#3 is in contact with the left hand instead of the grip?:eyes:

Fan and clap- Try a big fan and clap. The outward fan is the RFT. It is a take-away that is not pushed by the left shoulder but moved by the right forearm on plane- Out Up and IN. Even Basic motion is out up and In- those three movements are the incline plane. If you think basic motion is a stiff triangle move of the shoulders going only outward along the base line- yuo are wrong in your impression. Allow the right elbow to fold- this will cock the left wrist, flatten and left hand as the right hand remains LEVEL and bends to its impact fix flying wedge alignment. Take the shoulders out of the take- away. Far my useful as a connection between the pivot and power package on the down stroke

Did you not mean "the Right Arm bends gradually as the Left arm goes from Address to the Top of the Backstroke"

I have a bone to pick with this post because what your actually saying with this idea of a constant degree of wristbend is impossible with anything other than shots preformed with angled hinging with no usage of the acc. no 2 or 3 (basic motion). I completely disagree with your interpretation of the right flying wedge.

I do realise that short shots is what is being addressed but have seen you say this before many times where this is not applicable.

The myth of constant degree of wristbend - Lets just take the swinging procedure for these examples ok - The right hand is turned towards the inclined plane. Now a constant degree of wristbend is impossible because the right arm is bending.

This picture I created a while back will help illustrate this...



The myth of the level right wrist. How the right flying wedge really works is that when the right hand turns towards the plane on the backstroke - what was wristbend becomes wristcock and the right forearm is aligned to making its motion directly opposed to the inclined plane with a direct relationship with the clubhead. If you turn the right hand and maintain a level right wrist - you have infact destroyed the right flying wedge... infact what your saying is actually a bit silly.

What your saying is that you think the forearm would point along this line...



You have still have alot to learn.....:laughing1

Mathew

I cannot understand your contrary opinion. It seems to contradict basic TGM teaching as expressed by 12 piece bucket. Are you really claiming that the right wrist should upcock during the backswing?

Jeff.

You are correct, plgolfer! Sorry for any confusion.

Flying wedges post
 

Hi Okie
I still have the post and the pictures http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/i...ons/icon12.gif. Do you want me to send a private message ?
Phil

When is the right forearm on plane? Is it on plane with all the plane angles?

I really don't get any of this--in relation to my understanding [or not] of TGM:crybaby:

Ideally the right forearm will be on the inclined plane at impact.....

Ideally the right forearm will be directly opposed (vertical to) another plane hitting/swinging per 7-3....

Is it safe to say based on your model, that a "level" right wrist is mandatory in order to keep the right forearm wedge intact, but the right wrist bend is variable based on grip type, procedure, etc. Don't confuse right wrist cock with right elbow bend/cock?

bagger, were you in slidell with the group? if so, what did the three d show on right wrist cock?

No what I am saying is that both the right wrist bend and the right wristcock actually changes also... however the right flying wedge remains constant with the wrist conditions dynamically changing whilst the right forearm moves vertically to the plane which it is opposing.

What Bucket was saying in his post is actually impossible - its not 'my model'!

I do not confuse anything - people that understand my post will understand why what Bucket said is impossible....

In a single action grip, such as 10-2-B, once the wedges have been established the right wrist bend does not change, that's why it's single action. In a double, triple or quadruple it will change. Those are the four actions of the grip: horizontal and perpendicular of each hand.

If the right wrist cocks, the right forearm flying wedge, as defined by Homer Kelley, will be destroyed. The right wedge is an inline condition of clubshaft, right wrist and forearm. The key to keeping them inline is the level right wrist.

What Bucket said is not impossible, it is the ideal per 6-B-3-0-1 and 7-3.

Thanks
 

I got 'em...thanks! I missed your response...until today.

Batting 300!

Hi Joe - Sorry no, I wasn't.

My sense is that a level right wrist is something we "intend" to keep aligned, but if the clubhead is thrown to the end, it would take a lot of forearm strength to keep the right wrist from cocking. I don't have the eyes to see in Mathews 3D model how the right wrist is cocking assuming the right elbow is in the correct position for the swinger loading the sweetspot.

Likewise, a powerful pivot in the downstroke would increase wristcock and potentially effect the right wrist alignment but in this case, an onplane clubhead/shaft would temper a "wild" right wrist into the release interval.

I'm more concerned about the correct amount of right wrist bend.
I'll be the first to admit I have a lot to learn. :)

OK ... lets see if this makes it a lil easier to understand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOyoCySTFWc

Mathew

I find your verbal opening remarks and smirking facial expressions insulting to serious students of the TGM. I also find your video demonstration amateurish. I think that you should at least stand in front of a video camera and perform "real life" golf motion movements instead of sitting in a chair using a book. It is my belief that one can maintain a level right wrist (without right wrist upcocking), while maintaining a constant right wrist bend, during the backswing motion because of three motion phenomena occurring simultaneously - i) the right elbow is folding and ii) the right upper arm is simultaneously rotating at shoulder level and iii) the upper torso is simultaneously rotating in space. If you don't believe that it is possible, then at least produce a video demonstration using a golf club (used in a golf posture) to illustrate your contrary opinion.

Jeff.

First of all, my opinion is not a contrary position - it is the correct position. Its fact!

Secondly any serious student of TGM would 'think' and test their idea of the golfing machine text to see if they have the right perception. A serious student doesn't just learn the words without really understanding them. I haven't insulted one serious student of the golfing machine. A serious student should be delighted with listening to me.

Thirdly you are another person who is incapable of taking an intraspective look at the golf stroke. I mean seriously what on earth has the 'upper torso' got to do with this discussion...we are talking about the power package alignments with regards to the right arms mechanics. Stay ontopic if you are capable...

Fourthly - don't tell me what to do. I do these videos with my webcam inorder to better put across my answers and its just as quick as typing out a post. Just tell me whats in it for me to make a production quality video at my own expense and time. The reason I do these is for the fact that it is quick and easy.

Mathew,

I'm a serious student. You're insulting, rude and immature.

What I've Seen.....
 

From what I've seen on video. There may be some confusion between the right wrist being level and uncocked!!! In it's normal address position level and straight...the right wrist may appear to looked slightly cocked (looking at the wrist from a normal visual vertical condition)....but it's level (when viewed from a horizontal condition). It's the natural condition of the right wrist....actually for both wrists.

DG

Definitions per Webster & Homer
 

Some definitions so we are all on the same page.

serious- thoughtful or subdued in appearance or manner.
student- one who directs zeal at a subject.
insulting- to treat with insolence, indignity, or contempt.
rude- lacking refinement or delicacy.
immature- lacking complete growth, differentiation, or development.
left wrist action- see 10-18
right wrist action-?

:)

Good to have an adult show the way. As a serious lurker much info is gained
when we stay mannerly and encouraging.
Bob

Mr. Hogan's Action from DTL
 

How's Mr. Hogan's RFT & RF tracing the plane line ...it's pretty impressive:)