The "Classic Sit Down" position
 

Hello fellow TGM friends. I am asking for some input on the classic "sit down" position during the downstroke. I have a mini tour friend who works with Mike Bender and he is having him work on this part of his downstroke. Benders comments (through my friend) were to just delay the movement of the right knee, and separate the left knee and the hip turns.

I am more inclined to verify his stance, weight distribution, and then feel a "sit" or lowering of the butt and then tilt to allow the shoulders to allow pivot action to deliver. I also saw Ledbetter working with a large rubber material strapped around Howels right knee as he squated behind him creating tension on the right knee.

So, hip action creates leg action which creates foot action. Right?

I would welcome any commnets.

Differentiating Hip Action and Knee Motion
 

jpgolf,

The Start Down is a Hip Action, not a Knee Motion. Substituting the latter for the former led to the Leg Drive Abyss of the '70s and '80s.

The function of the Legs -- the Knees and Feet -- is to keep the Head Stationary while operating through the Hips to Pull the Right Shoulder down On Plane.

Anything else is an aberration and should be avoided by thinking players.

Listening??
 

I agree with Lynn 100%. So the question is how many people were listening to what he had to say?

To begin the startdown you should focus on ___________.

I'll post my answer tomorrow.

Mike O.

Hips
 

Hip action drives the start-down. It is a small lateral move. Lynn also talks about how this move "takes out the slack", meaning your hips move but your hands do not initially. From there you fire through with either a throw-out or drive-out motion depending on if you are swinging or hitting.

How'd I do? :???:

Right Shoulder down the plane.

Hand Controlled Pivot- The essence of the Golfing Machine
 

Answer: 5-0, Focus on directing the hands (which tell you what the clubshaft,face, and head are doing) via the #3 pressure point towards the plane line or getting them to the impact hand location- both require monitoring an on plane motion with the hands.

The reason I said I agreed with Lynn 100% - is that I took his post and it's heading to specifically differentiate when looking at the lower body movement - it was the hips moving the knees and not the knees moving the hips- anotherwords his post had a isolated context in regards to his answer. But the down plane shoulder moves the hips and they all move in response to the on-plane motion of the hands.

Per 2-0, that's the principle- but it's application isn't easy or simple until your not doing all those things that "get in the way". For instance, ideally you have lag throughout the body- but we're just using or isolating #3 as the point of monitoring- if you focus on #3 and don't have lag throughout the body- then your toast, because it's like dominoes, once you lose it from the feet it starts throwing it away through the body until it reaches your hands, hopefully you made it past impact before that happens! If your off plane your toast, if you don't load the club properly your toast, etc, etc. ....

Don't forget the big picture- your basic motion- that is, the on plane motion of the hands (geometry) with their corresponding clubhead lag (physics)- everything else happens as a result of that- or hinders that motion and action.

Mike O.

Edit#1: I said I agreed with Lynn, but it's not my place to put words in Lynn's mouth, so certainly if he doesn't agree or I've misinterpreted his response- He'll clarify his stance on this.

I agree the Hands should always be Monitored (5-0), especially its intended Delivery Path from the Top of the Stroke.

However, how can we relate your post to:

6-M-1
The “Centers” of the Stroke start with the Feet or the employeed Component nearest to the feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand Rotation.

7-17
Halting the Backstroke motion with the Feet and letting this same tension pull the Downstroke through Impact is “swinging form the Feet” and gives the Stroke maximum Swing Radius.

6-B-0
From the Feet the total moment of Inertia increases proportionately to Pivot Lag. So the Clubhead (or Primary Lever Assembly) whose Swing Radius extends to the feet is much harder to decelerate during Impact. Which means better Clubhead Speed at Separation.

Thank you.

I don't think about my hands first
 

Personally, if I think about my hands FIRST on the downstroke I will likely come over the top. If I initiate with my hips, then my hands drop into the slot and I can go at the ball as hard as I want while focusing my throw-out karate chop motion (swinging).

Trig- Your Swing
 

Trig,
First- responding to your post is difficult via a forum, in that - my response can come across as if "your swing sucks"- if you know what I mean- and I'm sure it doesn't. Given the fact that if you - Trig - think about the hands first on the downstroke- then you come over the top- as opposed to when you think of the hips first you don't come over the top- from your perpective - thinking about the hands first CANNOT be correct- you've "proven" it!

But my point that I made in the third paragraph of my post above- was made for that very reason- that you've got other issues that are not being performed correctly or get in the way of performing a hand controlled pivot. I typed that very paragraph for everyone but specifically for all the people like yourself (hey - that may include 99.9% of everyone, including me). Because when someone says - say per the Golfing Machine- just take your hands down the plane and everything else will/should respond etc.- guess what it doesn't- and isn't that simple- because of all these things that get in the way. So the easy answer is to throw the baby out with the bath water- "Start the club down with the Hands i.e. the awareness of the lag pressure"- FORGET IT- THROWAWAY!, That's wrong! You got to focus on the body first!

So you've compensated by having pivot controlled hands- specifically in your case making sure that the body- i.e. hips, slide or make a particular move before you can allow the hands to move, etc. You've taken a movement that should be one continuous flow and broken it up- to allow your best chance of hitting the ball well- given the unknown issues in the movement.

Now, AND THIS IS KEY- your situation is not unusually- it's more of the norm for all of us on this forum. The good part about that, is that most probably can relate to what you're doing- and many including yourself can also sense or deduct that the movement that you're making is not the ideal- but it performs the best for today, given all of the known alternatives.

Not a cop-out but the proper context/knowledge to really grasp this can't be posted on a forum post in a matter of minutes- too many issues to cover. And believe me, many play golf and at a very high level doing what your doing- as I tried to emphasis it's not unusual to run into the problem that you have experienced. I guess that's about it for now, I'll respond to Tongzilla's post- which may address one specific issue- that may be helpful in understanding the issues surrounding this.

Mike O.

Hands AND Pivot- The marriage
 

Tong,
Don't have my book with me- Therefore would like to address the 7-17 quote and the 6-B-0 quote simultaneously- as they really cover the same general topic. (I'll look at the 6-M-1 quote another time).

In regards to the 7-17 quote- here would be the common "mis-read"- "Gee, sounds like I really want to make sure that I concentrate on the feet- specifically resisting the backward motion of the body with the feet- something like the X factor", "and then make sure that the I concentrate on the feet leading the downstroke. And this mis-read in regards to the Golfing Machine is common- in that as Homer describes the mechanical functioning of the machine parts- that happen- or are a result of something else- and all of a sudden the person is trying to perform this and that.

Taking a brief break for a paragraph here- it's important to understand a couple of key perspectives here- 1) The perspective of the ideal procedure for the movement and 2) Understanding those things that you are temporarily working on in order to make the machine function better. Those are two separate issues and must always be understood in their proper context. More often than not - what people work on becomes their procedure- and that difference between the ideal procedure and changing the movement is never clearly defined. Here's a non- golfing example. Let's say that the proper procedure for operating a car is to 1) Get in, 2) turn on the ignition with the key, 3) press on the gas peddle while steering the wheel. Now, let's say that Trig (hey, Trig I had to use somebody!:) ) get's up get's in the car- goes through the procedure and the car doesn't speed up very much (i.e. doesn't hit the ball very far say), he gets out - notices that the front left tire is low- takes the pump out and fills the tire up and takes off. Next day gets in the car - goes through the procedure- car doesn't speed up, gets out and sure enough needs to fill up the tire again- and Trig - not being very bright- finally understands the problem - the procedure for driving his car is to 1)Fill up the tire every morning (slide the hips), 2) Get in, 3) turn on the key, 4) press on the gas peddle while steering the wheel. Now, you would say - that's ridiculuous- I know Trig and he is a sharp guy- and he would obviously realize that his tire had a leak- and would get the tire fixed- he wouldn't make that part of his procedure. But human movement and our understanding of it is minimal- and therefore that's exactly what so many players do all the time, they add things to their procedures that are non-essential or items that they are working on- become their procedure. Because it's not so easy to see or understand the problem in a golf movement as it is with operating your car.


Anyway, back to the 7-17 quote and the proper "read":
"Halting the Backstroke motion with the Feet and letting this same tension pull the Downstroke through Impact is “swinging form the Feet” and gives the Stroke maximum Swing Radius."[/b]

The above quote is done via the #3 pressure point. Here is the crude explanation i.e. the normal method broken out for analysis. Before you get to the top or end of your backstroke- you start the effort to move the club back to the ball with the hands first, but that doesn't stop the backward movement of the arm/club, so other muscles/tendons come into play, for a full shot- this "flow" to stop the club from moving back moves from the hand, to arm, through the body to the feet- with the feet being the last supporting brace to help stop the backward movement of the club- so while the club is finalizing the backward movement- the mind has already started the downswing, and the body has helped stop that backward motion. And the load that you sense via the #3 pressure point- acknowledges all of that lag through the body, acknowledges that swing radius, and acknowledges the length of that moment of inertia arm, I.E. the feel of the load at #3 would feel different if you hadn't created that kind of pivot lag. To retain that kind of pressure/understanding that #3 has, means essentially you have to retain that pivot lag, that swing radius. If all of sudden your lower body stops- say because you subconsciously or consciously knew that the initial direction that you started down with would cause you to miss the ball- then you instantly shorten your swing radius- and instantly have throwaway- you just can't shorten your radius like that and possibly accelerate enough to retain the lag. An example of that would be the following: Imagine you've got this 20 foot heavy board- that you've swung back and now are swinging forward around a corner- you've loaded it going back and now you accelerating it around the corner with the lag pressure that you loaded throughout your body- but the basic awareness of that is in your hands- now all of a sudden - some magical force cuts that board down to 3 feet long- because of the shorter radius- it speeds up so quickly and it disrupts the motion so much that you just can't help but lose the lag pressure of the board. That's similar to the throwaway situation if you lose pivot lag suddenly.

So I may have rambled, may have got off the subject- but it's a big area of study- hoped something helped or answered the question. Don't mind if you ask more or bring it back to a specific focus- if it's on point and helps clarify this concept that we are discussing.

Mike O.

Mike,

In the above quote you have done a fantastic describing "the hands controlled pivot."

How would you "fix" someone that loses Pivot Lag and thus loses the sensitivity in the #3 pressure point? What is the best way to patch the tire without pumping it up every morning?

How does one halt the Backstroke with the Hands/Mind effectively?

I think you are on the essence of things here. Super job!

B

I agree with you 100% brother! I have NO doubt what you are saying is true in my case.

The sad truth is I'm mostly left to my own devices, the book, and this forum to improve myself. We have no AI's here in Austin. Despite being site admin here I only see Yoda about once per year. :(

Given that - I try to make things work the best way I can so I can get that ball in the hole! :D

Hand Controlled Pivot- The essence of the Golfing Machine
 

You could patch it yourself, take it to a Mechanic, put on the spare, buy a new tire,buy a new car..... wait you were just using that as analogy;), let's get back to golf- which isn't too much different-
1) It's not easy to "fix" that for your own game, with all of your feel and awareness, let alone teach someone to repair that issue. For me, that's an important starting point- that some of these applications are and can be elusive, so I'm not sure I could fix it.

I would use everything available. Realizing the two essentials, if the geometry is off or if the physics loading/acceleration is off- then you're going to have a problem. How's the structure? Is anything un-golf like? Are you supporting the load at the top (7-3)? It's a puzzle for sure! Are you "just" focusing/isolating the feel of #3- and ignoring everything else?- If you are- I think that could be a problem and cause of not having pivot lag- you've got a wealth of sensations flooding through on that "canvas", you're not ignoring them- you're just putting them in their proper hieracrchial order- that is the hands control the shaft, head, face- so make sure you know what's going on there- the other feels, sensations are a result of that movement or goal of hitting the ball and are also important.

How does one halt the Backstroke with the Hands/Mind effectively? I think that pretty much happens. But all of the above really applies.


That's it for now,
Mike O.

Great post there Mike.
It was fantastic in differentiating what happens independently and what happens as a result of another action.

from the ground up
 

The feet are the movable parts of the swinger being in contact with the stationary ground. It seems that the friction between the shoes and the ground enables the counter force (against the force exerted by the pivot through the feet) from the ground to be transferred through the feet all the way up through the pivot to the shoulders, which drive the arms.

I'm not sure if making a swing is possible when standing on a rotary office chair, which takes that friction out of play.

So, it seems that you want to pull or push against something with the hands, yet the body moves from the ground up first.

Ben Hogan's Extra Spike
 

Ben Hogan's golf shoes were custom made for him in England by the Maxwell Shoe Company. They had twelve spikes instead of the normal eleven.

The extra spike was located under the inside ball of each foot.

There was a reason for that.

Anchors aweigh!
 

Only with the feet rooted in the ground can the clubhead feel as though it is "left behind" whether it is dragged or driven downplane. Then and only then can the myriad of other things "happen" that produce solid, compressed, and predictable golf shots. Much, much, more, but linking the extremities, hands, feet, and head, well...magic can result!

EC

Reaction Forces
 

"All non-symetrical body movements are reflected in reaction forces- that is, forces of support from the ground on which one stands." Sven Carlsoo- Dept of Anatomy- Stockholm Sweden

Because of the rotary nature of the golf swing- you've got tremendous reaction forces going on- so I understand that issue, but I guess I'm unsure of the essence of your post- could you clarify. Specifically, these two sections:


1) "from the ground to be transferred through the feet all the way up through the pivot to the shoulders, which drive the arms"- If you were to end the first paragraph before this section- I follow it completely- but this last section throws me and I just need you to clarify exactly what your saying.

2) "it seems that you want to pull or push against something with the hands, yet the body moves from the ground up first"

By clarifying the above two sections- I may be able to understand the third thing I was uncertain of- but just in case, I'll ask it here ahead of time- Did you disagree with something in my previous post? I think so, but was not 100% sure.

Thanks for the feedback in advance.

Mike O.

Hogan- The Perfectionist
 

Lynn,
Nice addition- In line with Ben Hogan's custom made golf shoes- is a study completed by the Biomechanics lab at The Pennsylvania State University- It was published in the Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Vol. 15, No. 3, pp. 247-255, 1983, where they study ground reaction forces and make several suggestions for shoe design including cleat placement and cleat inclination, among other things.

In addition, quoting from their article:
"The interaction between a golf shoe and the ground is the vital link that allows a golfer to perform the series of body movements during the swing that lead to impact with the ball. Because the movements of the body segments create ground reaction forces at the feet, the study of this interaction provides a unique opportunity to investigate the mechanical conditions existing during the swing."

Not forgotten
 

EC,
Didn't want to leave you out of some response! I just want to know when we can play- as I would love to get in that wallet of yours my friend! On second thought- no need to post to this- I already know your answer- and I'm meekly trodding back to my hole!:)

Thanks for the attention.

For (1), it's just my idea of how the force and body movements flow during a swing, which might relate to the three quotes made earlier by Tongzilla.

For (2), again, I believe the body movement is the result/"effect" of (or reaction to) the intention (or the "cause"). In other words, there is an intention behind every concious body movement.

The "body movement" can be observed and analized by the viewers (but not the player in action without looking into a mirror or monitor) or felt by the player (maybe by the viwers) with certain attention.

Unless shared, however, the "intention" can hardly be known to the outsider. Even the player him/herself sometimes is confused. No wonder people get shocked all the time when viewing their own swings.

I believe "knowing what happens (or what is supposed to happen)" is one thing, "making it happen" is the other.

help?
 

OK, That didn't help me. But I think this could be a good discussion so I want to pursue it. If I could take one item at a time- then regarding item #2 - Quoted: "For (2), again, I believe the body movement is the result/"effect" of (or reaction to) the intention (or the "cause"). In other words, there is an intention behind every concious body movement."

I absolutely agree with what you said in item #2, but it didn't help me understand your orginal post. My question to you regarding #2 is - What is the intention behind the golf swing movement?

Actually, upon re-reading your second post (#21), I see you're making the distinction that what your intention is and what's happening in the movement are two different things- A very important distinction in movement theory- so I'm with you 100% with that. But that's where I wanted you to clarify your post#15 in this thread. Say to specifically #1 in that post- what are you saying is happening and what are you saying is the intention, in regards to the golf swing. And staying on that thought- in regards to #1 in post #21, how do you see the forces flowing/working, in that regard. And, again I wasn't sure if your post#15 was supporting my previous post, or if you had a different perspective.

Mike,

Thanks a ton for your contribution! Can't wait to see where this thread ends up

Mike O, I appreciate your (and others) interests in this topic, as you always does in anything relate to this game, and apologize for not making it clear enough. I'll try it harder this time.

OK, "What is the intention behind the golf swing movement?"

There is an ultimate one I call "hands intention", the intention of "how you would like the HANDs to be moved" or what you would like to do to the HANDs", since they are where the club to be connected and controlled. This probably relates the most to what Homer writes in 5-0 "MONITORING".

With the club in the HANDs, the BODY will respond or react to that specific
"intention/thought/command" (or the "input") and display a corresponding pattern of movements (or the "output"), and so does the CLUB. It seems that's how it is supposed to work. The swing will be in a good shape, if the right"commond" has been executed currectly.

Of course, there could be other "intention(s)" behind the golf swing movement, which include:

"body intention"-"how you would like the BODY(parts) (other than the hands) to behave" or what you would like to do to the BODY(parts)",

"club intention"-"how you would like the CLUB to be moved" or what you would like to do to the CLUB",

"ball impact intention"-"how you would like the BALL to be hit/struck/impacted" or what you would like to do to the BALL"

"ball flight intention"-"how you would like the ball flight to be",

"target intention"-"where would you like the ball to land",

"hazard intention"-"how would you like the ball to get away from the hazards",

"score intention", "hole/money intention", "win or loss intention", "title intention", "ego intention", ...... and anything other than that "hands intention".

The most common example is "to hit it HIGH, FAR and STRAIGHT" and
the corresponding body movements usually are "pivot tilt away from the target and behind ball, forced casting arms and hands scooping",
the clubhead movement becomes "sharp downward, decelerating and outside-in toward impact",
the ball flight is "weak slice", and
the result is "missing the target", a typical victim of the "ball flight intention" being gotten in the way of the "swing intention", or should I say the "hands intention", for the majority of "instinctive" golfers. Or, people simply swing the way they want the ball (instead of the hands) to behave.

For others, see 3-F-7 "SNARE".

So, I believe, learn/fix the golf swing by learning/fixing the "command". Play the shot by executing, again, THE "command", regardless of the situation. A "machine" works according to the "program/command" only. So, what exactly is THE "command"? Whatever that works.

"Say to specifically #1 in that post- what are you saying is happening and what are you saying is the intention, in regards to the golf swing. And staying on that thought- in regards to #1 in post #21, how do you see the forces flowing/working, in that regard."

The "intention" (or input) is (supposed to be) "sustain the lag (toward somewhere with the hands)", and "what is happening" (or the output)is "the leading slight bump and turn of the lower body". Or, you only want to do something to (or the club with) the hands, yet the lower body (beginning with the feet) moves/responds first (while the command is being executed).

People generally expect or feel the part, upon which is intended to be operated, to move the first. It may not be the case, depending on the "converting process" (between the "input" and "output") of the action. It seems that your post work on that "converting process" in more detail and sounds quite reasonable.

I just tried to get my point out and provide my explanation why this is happening. Again, it seems that the body applies a force to the ground and receive a reactive/counter force from it through the feet. The arms and hands cann't actually move until that force reaching upward to the shoulders.

It seems to me that the concern of the body parts other than the hands during the swing is optional. It also seems that the mind can only work on one thing at a time. So, you are actually no longer "moving the hands", while working on "bumping and turning the pivot".

Also, I'm not sure if the feet has something to do with the "Swing Radius" (which I define "the line between the clubhead sweetspot to the base of the neck"), rather than the "power generator/accumulator/deliverer".

Again, I appreciate the attention and feedback. BTW, Happy Chinese New Year!

Case closed
 

BTS,
Thanks for the post- now I understand more clearly where you are coming from- and in general I don't have any other questions, as I think we're in general agreement. Although there is probably alot more cookin to do- 12 piece- do we need to fry any more chicken? If so, could you jump in and stir up some grease! Or maybe everyone's appetite is full on this course.

I'm glad you like it this time.

Indeed, "there is probably alot more cookin to do". It's, to me, a very critical area, yet overlooked (as compared to swing mechanics). Those are pretty much my points by now. I'll touch on the topic, should it come up in the furture. Thanks again for the attention.

Mike O- I have LOVED your posts for many years. I always have, and with pleasure, print them out and sit back and learn from them. I am so glad to see a few more posts from you.

It is so easy to look at the Hogan sequence- the one that was used by Matthew to show Lynn and Hogan's camera captured positions. In that sequence- his right knee is driven far down the target line that it is easy to be mislead that it moved early and before the hips. This is a Jim McLean thought of driving the right knee as startdown. What is not fully understood by many is Hula-Hula- the hip turn. Hogan of course could wear a grass skirt. I think Hula-Hula could be (should be??) an Imperative.

Hula Hula with Axis Tilt that controls the upper body- these independent actions is what allows the head to remain steady WITHOUT being “in the way”- the tripod.

Season and Serve
 

Mike!

When you get the finished parts out of the grease you gotta season while it's still hot. So how about this before we plate it with all the fixin's and hot sauce . . .

I think you are on to something about #3 feel and being a result of all the lag in the system including all the links in the gear chain.

Is it possible to sum up the "hands controlled pivot" and "intention controlled hands" thing succintly in a paragraph or so? I think we have put significant emphasis on the hands controlling everything. Mind in the hands. However, as you have said, sometimes you have to "pump up the flat." I know we can have educated hands but do you ever graduate?

Thanks a ton!

B

Out of Steam
 

12 Piece,
Out of steam right now, but 5-0 3rd paragraph somes it up pretty well - from the A) Hand Controlled issue, to the B) dictating to the FEET as well as the clubshaft, to C) clearing the right hip - "Hula Hula" importance posted by "Power Package" in post #27. (And thanks for the nice comments PowerPackage!)

In regards to "Do you ever graduate?"- well, maybe not- but it's the learning that's fun, i.e. the goal of accomplishing the graduation- that you don't have, that's the exciting part, not the graduation itself.

Finally, here is a final thought for you- that I'm just going to throw out- anotherwords it's not going to be as detailed as it could or should be.

There is definitely alot more detail and potential discovery in regards to really understanding the hand controlled pivot concept- Homer had it correct but just touched on the subject- and I think most of us either consciously or subconsciously realize that.

So everthing really flows from the movements made at the hands, and then the forearms, arms and so on.

For example, as Powerpackage essentially said- clearing the hip is so important it should be an imperative.

So we've got three basic options for clearing the right hip. 1) Just take your hands down the plane and in order to do that - you'll have to clear the hip in order for the elbow not to crash into it. 2) Take the hands up to the top, then practice your start down waggles and train your pivot to clear the hip- Look, Look, Look until you can turn those mechanics into the proper feel.
Those first two are the basic Golfing Machine approaches- the third approach is as follows- and I'm going to cover it quickly without alot of detail. When you pronate (palm down) with the forearm- the pattern of movement is as follows: the arm straightens, and the shoulder moves forward. That's basic reaching out pattern of movement to grab something. Let's review- reach out and grab something on the table- say with your left hand, it's pronation of the left forearm, extension of the arm, lateral abduction of the upper arm from the torso (i.e. moves out to the side slightly) and forward movement of the clavicle of the shoulder girdle. Now, as you bring back that little bug to eat, the opposite pattern occurs, supination of the forearm, flexion of the arm, lateral adduction of the upper arm (elbow comes back towards the midline of the body) and retraction of the shoulder girdle. So you've got these patterns of movement that flow through the body. So in alot of sports motions and golf here's how you do it.

Let's assume that we are all right handed golfers.
Stand up and put your hands palms facing in front of you, with your arms parallel to the ground, and the hands vertical to the ground - or the back of your left hand (target hand) facing the target. Now, we're going to go through one motion and see the pattern of motion flow through the body. So, turn i.e. supinate your left hand (palm facing the sky) and pronate your right hand (palm facing the ground)- do that as much as you can- anotherwords hit the extreme range of motion. Hold it there. You should see the pattern emerging that I described above, the left arm wants to bend the right wants to become straight, the left elbow wants to come towards the mid-line, the left shoulder lowers, the right shoulder raises. Because of those motions, the hips have slid- the left hip has cleared to the right, so on and so on. Note this is the opposite of what the right hander wants to happen on the backswing. But if we start back at the beginning and pronate the left forearm and supinate the right forearm, then you'll see the proper downswing motion for the right handed golfer- right elbow flexes and the upper right arm wants to externally rotate i.e. the elbow wants to come into the body (say pitch position), that creates lateral flexion of the trunk (hip slide), and all of those movements: 1) the flexion of the right arm, 2)the external rotation of the humerus (elbow moving towards the mid body), 3) retraction of the right shoulder girdle 4) the lateral flexion of the trunk on the right side, all keep that right should back and down- i.e. on plane.

So- to make the quick jump- the pronation and supination of the forearms are crucial and one of the first links to the whole thing working correctly. And in the golf swing, the basic program may be as follows: Start in the standing position with palms facing and arms parallel to the ground, back of the left hand facing the target- You'll just be turning the forearms in this excercise, but I'll be noting if you were swinging a golf club where you would be in the swing.
1) Supinate the right forearm (right palm faces the sky) and Pronate the left forearm (left palm faces the ground). (In golf - your half way back - clubshaft parallel to the ground)
2) Now, fully pronate the right forearm (right palm faces the ground), and fully supinate the left forearm (left palm faces the sky). (In golf- your at the top/end of the backswing)
3) Now, fully supinate the right forearm (right palm facing the sky) and fully pronate the left forearm (left palm facing the ground). (In golf- your half way down on the downswing- clubshaft parallel to the ground)
4) Now, pronate the right forearm and supinate the left forearm until your back to the beginning- back of left hand facing the target and both hands vertical to the ground. (In golf, your now at impact)

You might try it- those kind of joint motions starting at the hands will produce and create the kind of body motions that result in clubhead lag and on-plane motion, clearing the right hip, etc, etc. In a full motion swing, you need to concentrate on 1, 2, 3 but 4 will take care of itself via centrifugal force.

I think that's some of the additional information you'll need to get that diploma!

Mike,

This is a fascinating discussion. Thank you for these posts.

I assume you are describing a Swinging procedure with the exercise. To put a "label" on these motions, I would say that #1 describes the "start up swivel" and #4 describes the "release swivel".

I'm probably doing something wrong because I don't do step #2. Once I reach the step #1 position, I maintain it to the top and back down to club once again parallel to the ground.

What am I missing?

Clarification
 

Bob,
I'm not saying this is necessarily the "proper" way to swing.
But

A) it touches on the issues of how these particular joint motions create patterns through the other joints.

B) secondly, the control and flow should be from the contact point back through the body- that ties in with the "intention", anotherwords if kicking a soccer ball then it would be the motion of the foot / lower leg that would create the other joint motions.

C)So I wanted to have you make that "exagerated" movement to see the principles at work. So in that context, at halfway back you need to twist your forearms to the opposite extreme by the time you get to the top. From there as you think of taking the hands down plane- they have only one way to move- untwist- until halfway down the again move the other way to impact- from the top- if you just make the motion or sense the force- I think it should pretty much happen- certainly on the downswing your letting that happen- not trying to make it happen- you've already set it up.

Again, with your hands out in front of you- palms facing- wrists vertical to the ground. Your saying that you turn the left one palm down and the right palm up- and that's your motion to the top of the forearms. Then on the downswing- they move back to vertical from release to impact. Essentially, your starting at vertical, turning, then returning to vertical. Notice the difference in potential power when you do what I'm suggesting you try to see the patterns of joint motions.

Start at vertical, turn (1/2 way back- left forearm pronated, and right forearm supinated), then from halfway back- to the top your completely rotating your left forearm to supination and the right forearm to pronation, much different than you're currently doing. Now, here's the big potential difference, in this "exagerated" movement besides created the proper body movements as a result of the left forearm pronating and the right forearm supinating on the first half of the downswing, you've got this whole extra power source added to the handspeed- that left forearm pronation and right forearm supination is adding tremendous speed to the clubhead in addition to your handspeed.

We are in the LAB- so in this context I'm just throwing some ideas out. So, back to your question what are you missing? Yes, step two and three. But remember I'm saying at this stage and this context play around with the concept - And see if you can that this extreme forearm rotations A) create some of the corresponding body movements that I described above and B) did you acquire more distance as a result of the added clubhead speed. Then report back (anyone) and see what kind of feedback you have.

Clarification
 

Mike,

Thanks for clearing up my confusion. I am now "on board" with the spirit and intent of the discussion (hey, better late than never:!:).

I intend to make it to the range today and will give it a go.

Eye Opening
 

I hit balls on the range today using the procedure set out by Mike O. in his posts #29 and #31. I did this with my pitching wedge after first hitting about 20 balls with my regular Swinging procedure. I made about 15 - 20 rehearsal swings to get the sequence down. There is no mirror on the range for me to "see" what was happening, so all I concerned myself with was getting the correct sequence of pronation - supination - pronation - supination (note: I quickly found that concentrating only on what my left hand was doing worked best for me).

This created a feeling unlike anything I had previously experienced -- sort of a "Jim Furyk Gone Wild" feeling.

When I hit the first ball with this method, my hands felt very "oily" and "quick" through Release and Impact. The ball went 10 yards farther than my previous best. I hit 10 balls, all of which went farther than the first 20 with my "old" method. I then went back and forth, doing an A - B comparison. "New" beat "Old" on all but one shot.

On the range, I couldn't tell what my body (pivot) was doing because I was concentrating too much on just hitting my hand positions. But the whole motion felt very coordinated and I finished nicely on balance. I also noticed I didn't pull any shots -- one of my tendencies with the short irons.

I was surprised after I got home and was able to watch this swing in the mirror. It didn't look all that much different than my normal swing -- and it certainly didn't look like Jim Furyk on acid.

It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence. I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1).

Mike O. -- you're on to something.

Mike,

To piggy back on RCW's question . . . where would the club be pointing in step #2 based on the pronation of the right forearm? "across the line" or "laid off"?

Also, when you define "hands" are we talking humerous bone, forearms, wrists, hands and fingers?

I agree with RCW you are "on to something."

5-0
 

I just wanted to put up some of 5-0 for everyone to see the platform from which Mike has launched this starship.

The Hands are the “Command Post” for all Feel processing. As the Stroke proceeds, they dictate to the Feet as certainly as the dictate to the Club. No Negative (Off Course) Feedback can get to – or from – the Clubhead except through the Hands. Regardless of the amount of technical know-how and practice, uneducated hands can nullify it all and never even be suspected. Monitor all three elements of the Club (1-L) by way of the Hands – never directly. The Hands are much easier to Monitor than the Clubhead because their travel is so much more even and slower (2-K-6). The first step in this Educational Process “Look, Look, Look” per 3-B. If you feel your game isn’t reflecting your understanding of Alignments- STOP MONITORING THE CLUBFACE INSTEAD OF YOUR HANDS. And, unless otherwise specified, at all times – but especially during Start Down- maintain the Clubhead Lag relationship to the Plane Line – not the body. That – failure to clear Right Hip (Roundhouse) can initiate almost every alignment disruption, including SHANKING (2-F, 3-F-7-E, 6-C-2). Constantly upgrade their information storage and retrieval as with any other computer.

“Monitoring” is awareness – through “Feel”, “Feedback”, sensation – of the location, condition, direction etc. of any element for any purpose. When you watch as you reach for your cup, you are unaware fo your hands. But with your eyes closed you are acutely dependent on them. Then notice how quickly they can adapt when “monitored.” Golfers have the same problem. Because your eyes must be on the Ball, they cannot watch the Club. So swing the Club with your eyes closed until you realize how consciousness of the Club, per se, is so disruptive as compared with consciousness of the Hands. Learn to SWING THE HANDS, MONITOR THE HANDS. Some players use the Club only to develop its TOTAL equivalent in Lag Pressure Point Feel. That is – until the Hands no longer consciously Monitor the Clubhead or the Body – only themselves, and automatically dictate total Component compliance with Delivery Path (6-E) and Delivery Line (2-J-3) requirements (7-23). Both are Monitored by the Hands but the Delivery Lines, in addition, must be “Traced” by the Right Forearm. For the ARC of Approach Delivery Line that relationship is with true geometric Plane Line, itself. The Plane Line – being the Basic – can substitute any of its “Visual Equivalents” at any time. In either or both directions. Because the Right Forearm and Clubshaft are on the same Plane during Release and Impact (7-3), players actually Monitor the Clubhead Delivery Line by “Tracing” along it with the Right Forearm with the #3 Pressure Point as the lens causing its beam to move along the Reference Line. Study 2-N and 4-D.

Mike you are a credit to all Machinists! Thanks! B

12 piece
 

Thanks for the questions!

Guinea Pig
 

Bob,
Thanks for being a guinea pig! It was fun to see that you understood what I was describing- and why some would or would not see results with it (it's not a miracle cure- just a part of the puzzle that some have and some don't), it was also nice to here your results- which was what I was describing also.

Your quote:
"It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence."

Your description of above is correct- that supination starting the downswing of the right forearm (that happens automatically- if you got up there with the right forearm pronated), combined with the related right arm motions of right humerus adduction and external rotation, and that flow through the other joints, really add power to the clubhead motion. You've effectively lengthened the downswing- by creating those additional movements. It's no different than throwing a football- at the top of the backswing the front of the ball is facing behind you i.e. you've flipped it around with the pronation of the right forearm. Notice how much less power you would have if you hadn't done that. That's how you were hitting the ball before.

Your Quote:
"I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1)."

That's correct- you created a pattern, starting with how/where in space you moved your hands- that changed the forearm motion, that changed the upper arm motion, that changed the shoulder motion, that changed the hip motion, that changed the lower body motion- getting you closer to a hand- controlled pivot. The irony is that you got the pivot more involved- automatically. Versus before - to clear that right hip or to make prevent from coming over the top- you had to have a pivot controlled procedure- antherwords you had to think about moving the pivot because of improper hand/arm motions- such as trig was mentioning earlier in this thread. And so you didn't need to think about the pivot to make it move- and yet it was moving alot more - or functioning more on auto-pilot.

Mike O's Diabolical Hand Controlled Pivot Experiment
 

Cool! Wasn't able to hit balls but took some "dry" swings in the mirror like this. I looked like a goof-ball (well more of a goofball) with the supinated left hand (palm facing the sky). But man when the sequenced is reversed everything quickly falls into place. It just happens. The pivot looks better, better axis tilt, better storage . . . all without having to "think" about it.

Pretty cool Mike O!

DIABOLICAL?
Colonel,
I thought it was obvious but you're the only one that's called me out- yes, I'm am Darthvader- and my goal is to undermine all TGM swings- so that I can win all bets! By the end of next week- RWH- should be shooting around 110 and I'll be flying to Oklahoma to line up my match with him! After I'm done with him not even YODA will be able to revive him! And by the sounds of it- I've already lined up a direct flight from Oklahoma to North Carolina- where I will be frying chicken! As long as I can stay away from EC while I'm there I'll be fine- one of those come in quick and get out quick operations. Colonel- don't....

Evil never wins . . . well it probably would beat me like I stole something.
 

Mike,

I'm quite sure that if you came to NC, Bucket would be left violated crying like a little girl in the fetal position. I am no match for the Diabolical Force of Darkness. You should definitely stay away from EC . . . DON'T STEP ON A HORNET'S NEST IF AIN'T GOT TO.

As far as the "come in quick and get out quick operation" . . . I won't. I mean you're the one with the name Mike . . . "O".:D

Thanks!

B