Is the world "flat"?
 

A good teacher hopes to keep a student from making the same mistakes that he or she made in the past. We certainly don't have time to talk about all of my past mistakes, so here's just one of them. I was taught to have a flat left wrist at the top, which was, seemingly, good information. After all, it is a Basic Imperative. So, for years, I went to the top and checked my left wrist to make sure it was flat. The grip was never mentioned. And as a result, I had my left hand considerably turned on the grip (so called, "strong" - seeing at least two or three knuckles).

So, the question is: Which wrist is "flat"?

And, here's the source of major confusion: Both are "flat".

When we speak of "flat" in TGM, we're referring to the wrist being geometrically flat. In other words, the left arm flying wedge must operate in it's own vertical plane of motion by cocking and uncocking the left wrist. However, for every degree of turn in the left hand on the grip, the same amount of bend should occur at the top.

Here's the way to see it:
Take a dowel in the left hand and hold the left hand vertical to the ground. Cock and uncock the left wrist and the dowel will move vertically. Now, grab the dowel with a turned left hand (palm facing the ground). Move the dowel in the same vertical plane of motion and you'll see the left wrist bending.

Therefore, don't ever tell Fred Couples that his left wrist has to be flat at the top, unless you want him to hit a boomerang to the left. He's a great example of a "flat" but bent left wrist. (Ripley's) Believe it, or not.

Click to see Yoda's demonstration of the flying wedges

Croiky!

(I call sticky).

...

Man you shoulda wrote this months ago......the differences in "flat" can be very confusing.....especially when you read different things all over the place.

I was very confused about this for a while.....and I had the hooks for a while.....

Flying Wedges are the key to understanding.......

This should be 'sticky'....required reading.

circles not hooks
 

I wish that hooks were all I hit. I was able to hit circles! You know you're having a problem when you can hook a SW 50 yards! And, that's what I was able to do. I wish I knew then what I know now, but don't we all....

Ted,

This is ABSOLUTELY PREMIUM CONTENT righ here! You are drilling down on the REAL MEAT AND TATERS dude.

I have 1 request and 1 question . . .

QUESTION: Can you speak to Lee Buck's Turned Grip BUT the Arched Left Wrist at the Top? He don't hit no lefties. I know that the Golfing Machine can explain this. What's your take?

REQUEST: How about a picture of your paws showing people what LEVEL is. I think this is a concept that people just don't get. It is mighty important.

This post should be copied and clipped in everyone's book.

Nice job! You rock! First the 7 with the right shoulder now this. You are my golf hero.

The Lee Buck question is pretty simple to answer. It's the same answer for David Duval and Lee Trevino.

They played the game "shut-faced" to borrow a term from SftPS (I know it's not a very popular book in TGM circles, but I really feel think it's a solid manual to follow.). What that means is they take a strong grip, a flat left wrist and much less supination and pronation than a typical technique. Essentially, they are blocking off hooks and hit powerfades all day long.

This is (imho) the most accurate way to swing.

Also, I don't believe hooks have much to do with having your wrist flat or bowed or arched at the top, regardless of your grip. In essence, regardless of your grip, your hands will have opened to the same degree. this does not mean they open the same amount however, just that the left hand/wrist will turn to [EDIT(typo) address] the swing plane regardless of grip (ie a weak grip will open more than a strong grip). On the way down, your natural inclination is to rotate the hands/clubface the FULL 90* regardless of grip. The result? Hooks with a strong grip.

Therefore the assumption is that a flat left wrist + strong grip = closed clubface. that's not really true because the bending of the wrists can in no way open or close the clubface (we can all agree there). This leaves us in a strange place: if the clubface pointing skyward at the top isn't really closed, why does the ball hook? that answer is a bit of conjecture, but mine is this: the unbending of the left wrist/bending of the right makes it harder for the right to work back "on top" of the left (and vise versa), which is the same motion as closing the clubface. (I need a better term than working back on top...do you guys know what I'm trying to say?)

Good analysis. Bending the Left Wrist closes the clubface and makes its alignment erratict. Arching the Left Wrist actually OPENS the clubface . . . Hogan Fades Trevino fades etc.

I think you are spot on on teh "right hand working on top." Basically it's easier to keep your Right Forearm from being too high and pointing outside the Plane Line.

Nice post.

It may be a little leap, but both of those pictures imply that the left hand is holding the club more in the fingers and not under the pad of the left hand. Certainly the thumb is "short" and not extended down the aft side of the shaft.

Not Ted, excuse me for butting in.

Educated Hands + Angled Hinging + Ball Position.

and sufficient Axis Tilt.

Oh I get what he was saying now....

Ya good post man....

You initially lost me with that "hand on top" part.....but I get it now.

Just Where Is That 'Aft' Left Thumb?
 

Two very prevalent misconceptions are surfacing here, and both need correcting.

First, Homer Kelley taught a 'Short' left thumb down the Aft side of the Shaft. Nowhere in The Golfing Machine is the advice given to 'extend' the left thumb down the Clubshaft ('Long' Thumb). Instead, the left forefinger is in a 'trigger finger' condition with the Shaft across the middle joint (the medial phalanx) and with the thumb near the tip. This is far different than the 'long' thumb Grip with its 'in the palm' Clubshaft and consequent 'ham-fisted' look.

Second, most TGM students know that, in the Strong Single Action Grip (10-2-B), the #3 Pressure Point is located on the Aft side (the 'behind' side) of the Clubshaft and that the left thumb is placed on this same line (10-2-0). Unfortunately, few of these students understand the Three-Dimensional alignment (Down, Out and Forward) of the On Plane Clubshaft during Impact. Accordingly, they make a contorted effort to put the thumb behind the Shaft while the Left Wrist is in its classic Adjusted Address position (Bent); the Clubshaft perpendicular to the Plane Line; and the back of the Left Hand facing the Target. This is all wrong.

Instead, the Grip should be taken in the Impact Fix condition. Here, the thumb will be located with the Left Wrist Flat; the Clubshaft leaning Forward; and the back of the Left Hand facing down the Angle of Approach (to 'right field', i.e., the 'alternate Target Line' per 7-2-3). In this alignment, the On Plane left thumb appears (and is) clearly 'behind' the Shaft (Aft). Then, when returned to the Classic Address position, the thumb will appear down the right side of the Clubshaft.

Didn't know that!

....

Thanks Lynn.

...

So at Standard Address the thumb will not be directly on the aft side?

i.e. more like "north-east" than "east."

Luke's Disciple
 

Flat is good!
great illustration today on the level right wrist ie. the two tendons that extend from the Right thumb as you extend the Right thumb away from you (not in the hitchhikers mode)
This keeps the left radius arm straight and the right elbow down and lower than the left elbow (which are necessary to deliver the clubhead on plane)
I was aware of the flat left wrist but your insights on the level right wrist was a major revelation !
Good Stuff !!

a change
 

Bob,
I appreciate your comments, and I had a great time with you today. You said you wanted to be the best 70 year old around. You keep the flying wedges and you'll be one of the best 30 year olds around, at 70.

I went in and edited one word in the post above, just to give it clarity. The right wrist remains "level" (not cocked or uncocked). I know we were flying through so much info today, that term might have been mentioned and passed.

I'm looking forward to seeing you again, soon.
Ted Fort

Yoda, I appreciated your clarification of the grip very much. It straightens out a few question marks I got from the 'impact bag' video. I guess I'm guilty of trying to mimic the "1 ppt behind the shaft- 2nd ppt behind the shaft- 3rd ppt dead behind the shaft--> BAM!" by getting my left thumb on the right side of the shaft. This in turn made the back of the left hand almost face forward, so I was kind of wondering at what stage I was supposed to turn it through impact (a concept I'm having trouble with anyway).

Is it correct that 'behind' in the impact bag scenario should mean 'behind in relation to the down-out-forward arc'?

Should there also be a cushion of air between the shaft and the middle of the inside of the left hand when gripped? I've been gripping in my plam, I guess.

Thank you.

Grip/Face
 

The TURNED LEFT HAND GRIP along with a FLAT LEFT WRIST.

Is this indeed a CLOSED CLUBFACE(CLUBFACE LOOKING TO SKY)?
Why do most good players that are in this position at the TOP(Trevino, Duval, Lietzke) actually FADE the ball?

This is a topic that should be addressed more. I'm fairly sure that Mr. Doyle actually says that the Clubface to Sky with Flat or Arched Left Wrist is OPEN, and vice versa. Of course many, many... most would say the exact opposite.

Of course whether one HOOKS or SLICES, depends a lot on how one brings the club and hands DOWN.

Arch your Left Wrist at Impact Fix . . . Clubface will OPEN. So maybe some people HOOK who have the Arch at the Top because the have to compensate for the alignment at the top which looks "shut" but is really OPENNING the clubface.

One interesting thing that I picked up by watching Yoda give this guy a lesson was that he was a bit Arched and as a result couldn't fully uncock to Full-Lever Extension. As a result could get completely DOWN because his Left Arm Wedge couldn't work properly.

gotta love the Machine.

Ya arching is a big part of it I think.

And with a Turned grip the back of your left hand points more "to right field"....(as well as your right palm).

Was thinking about this today....

I would guess that definately most of em (ppl with very Turned grips) are Angled Hingers....and some of em are Hitters.

and the back of the Left Hand facing down the Angle of Approach (to 'right field', i.e., the 'alternate Target Line' per 7-2-3).

Great information thanks!!!

A point to ponder
 

Arch your left wrist at impact fix...clubface will tend to open. Correct. Actually, the clubface will be slightly delofted as well as opened slightly. Now try this...

Take your normal grip and cock the left wrist so the club comes straight up and the club and left arm form a 90 degree angle. Hold the club in front of your chest, arms parallel to the ground, clubshaft pointing to the sky, clubface "square". This mimics the left arm - clubshaft relationship at the top of the swing (90 degrees). Now arch your left wrist. The clubface will close as the shaft is axially rotated into a closed position, exactly the opposite effect as arching the wrist had on the clubface while in the address/impact position.

I picked up this interesting tidbit from a famous instructor who knows TGM inside and out, and I haven't heard anyone talk about this since.

As the number 3 accumulator angle increases or decreases, the resulting effects on the clubface change dramatically in regards to bowing (arching) or cupping (bending) the left wrist.

So, at the top of the swing, assuming a 90 degree angle between clubshaft and left arm exists, bowing the wrist shuts the clubface due to the shaft being axially rotated closed.

More food for thought...

Ben Hogan...

Cupped at the top...has an opening effect on the clubface...AND bowed at impact...also has an opening effect on the clubface...a perfect formula for a left-to-right ballflight.

That's the secret right there. It's not just the cupped left wrist at the top. It's not just the bowed left wrist at impact..it is the combination of the two.

Very Interesting
 

.................................................

Very interesting vjcapron!!!

So it depends WHEN(at what stage) the LEFT WRIST is ARCHED or CUPPED(actually FLEXION or EXTENSION) during one's pattern?

Your explanation makes sense. More should be looked into involving this.

The DUVAL, LIETZKE, TREVINO, type of POSITION AT THE TOP is then actually SHUT? They then must make some type of compensation at Impact to OPEN the face... could be Angled Hinging.

Let's get MORE INPUT ON THIS SUBJECT!!

Moving from cupped to arched is moving AWAY from throwaway, which is of course, a good thing - throw away prevention.

Lagster,

I, too, think this is a very interesting topic and that it has not been studied enough. I guess that the complexity surrounding the different wrist positions and the resulting effects on the clubface is a good reason to just keep the left wrist flat and to maintain the left arm flying wedge as recommended by Yoda.

In response to your question about DUVAL, LIETZKE, and TREVINO...and I'll add LEHMAN to the list...yes, their clubface positions at the top are shut! Dead shut!

What do all these players have in common? They all setup open to their target lines. Since they all have strong left hand grips, they all destroy their left arm flying wedges on the way to the top, however they all comply with the law of the flail which enables them to time their clubface rotation shot after shot. We have fairly deep divots in this foursome, and a few back problems, too.

Dr. Jim Suttie would classify these guys as "Shut Face Players" and he has an interesting chapter on how to make these swings work in his new book.

The question is why does the left wrist appear cupped (bent) when one first turns the left hand on the grip so that the palm faces more groundwards at address, and then cocks the wrist upwards.

I believe that is is due to an anatomical re-arrangement of the wrist alignment due to forearm rotation (pronation). If one holds the flat left hand with fingers outstretched so that the back of the left hand is vertical, then any upcocking and downcocking wrist movement is a "pure" cocking movement (radial and ulnar deviation of the wrist at the radio-carpal joint). However, if one first pronates the left hand (which is a forearm movement and not a wrist movement) before gripping the club and then grips a club (producing a turned hand grip), and then performs the same vertical-to-the-ground cocking movement of the clubshaft, then the left wrist will bend (dorsiflex) because the cocking movement is occurring across the plane of the wrist joint, which is turned to the right secondary to a forearm rotary movement. To perform a "pure" cocking movement that will not produce bending of the left wrist in that turned hand situation, then the club must be cocked in the plane of the wrist joint - so if the left hand is pronated 30 degrees (which rotates the wrist plane 30 degrees), then the club must be cocked in a plane that is 30 degrees to the right.

Jeff.

I thought that TGM students may enjoy understanding the anatomy of wrist movements so I produced the following image.



There are 8 wrist (carpal) bones.

Only two planar movements are possible at the wrist joint in two opposite planes - hinging (what HK calls bending/flattening) and cocking.

Cocking upwards causes radial deviation of the wrist - see left upper photo. It occurs mainly as a sliding action at the radio-carpal joint between the end of the radius and the scaphoid bone. Cocking downwards causes ulnar deviation of the wrist (see right upper photo) and occurs mainly at the articulation between the radius and the two proximal carpal bones (scaphoid and lunate).

Hinging forwards (palmar flexion) produces a palmar-flexed hand, and occurs at two articulatory levels - a certain amount of sliding between the radius and lunate bone, and a certain amount of inter-carpal joint sliding between the lunate and capitate wrist bones. Hinging backwards (dorsiflexion) produces a dorsiflexed hand (what TGM calls a bent wrist) and occurs partly at the level of the radiocarpal articulation (between the radius and lunate bone) and partly at the level of the intercarpal articulation between the lunate and capitate wrist bones.

Pronation and supination of the hand are not wrist movements and usually occur due to rotation of the radius bone over the ulna bone in the forearm, but the rotary movement can also occur at the level of the shoulder socket joint.

Jeff.

I'm not following the logic here in regards to how arching the left wrist at the top closes the clubface. Help?

I love this topic and will now add to the confusion with my own question in the hope that Yoda will set all of this straight.

If I have understood things correctly; The plane of the left wrist cock and the left arm not one and the same. At top, when viewed from down the line, the left arm is above the plane, the right arm is below and the palms when clasped as in prayer are sandwiching the inclined plane. The shaft and the club face lay on this inclined plane. The left wrist also cocks along this inclined plane. To me meaning that the left wrist must be cupped at top. A flat left wrist would imply an off plane cocking along along the line of the left arm and a slightly closed clubface. A bowed left wrist would imply an even further off plane cocking and even more closed clubface.

IF this is correct and the left wrist ideally goes to flat or bowed at impact then how do we reconcile this with the notion of the LAFW with its non bending left wrist?

Hope this is the right place to ask this question
 

At the top of my swing, my left wrist tends to be cupped rather than flat. I play off 4 (3.8) at the moment but have been lower and having made TGM swing changes since around March this year I am expecting to get lower again next season.

My question(s) are thus:

1. How important is it to remove the cupping from my swing?

2. Is extensor action the way to remove the cupping?

3. If the answer to (2) is 'yes' what is the best drill for extensor action and what does the 'pull in the direction of the left arm not the direction of the shaft mean?

When I try to remove the cupping, it makes me feel like I am swing very very flat and I am more inclined to hook the ball.

Thanks for any help/light shone on this.

my two cents;

1. Only important if the cupping you have noticed is an off plane , horizontal wrist motion. If on the other hand it is the natural result of an on plane left wrist cock then dont change it. This is all grip type dependent. Do Yodas hammer drill and look, look , look at your left wrist. Mine cups a little as the left wrist cocks, so do most peoples I believe.

2.EA is a separate issue which may or may not help if you are really making an off plane left wrist motion. The cupping issue relates to the plane of the left wrist cock and the Left arm flying wedge.

3. Use the search tool for a variety of EA drills. The left arm is above the plane and therefor not inline with the shaft. EA is a pulling on the left arm and therefor a pulling in a direction below the shaft plane. The right forearm is on plane not the left arm. The left arm is above the plane but points below the plane.


O.B.

Thank you

:salut:

Chicken Laden Medial Phalanx
 

Good chicken on this medial phalanx. So, the thumb appears to be on the right side of the grip (as opposed to aft side) at adjusted address because the left hand is NOT facing the angle of approach?

At Right Angles To What?
 

That is correct. This whole idea as to what constitutes the 'back of the shaft' changes as the Shaft rotates On Plane. That is why, in 1-L #11, Homer Kelley added the boldened words below to the 7th edition:

"Clubhead Force and Motion is On Plane at right angles to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (the direction of the motion) and varies with the Speed, Mass and Swing Radius."

:salut:

Thanks Yoda! The more I consider little things the more I believe there is no such thing. Someone wise said something to that effect.

So did we decide?
 

I got into it with a club pro about whether or not an arched/bent left wrist opens/closes, the face of the club. I was unconvincing! I remembered this thread and vjapron's contention that at the top of the swing an arched wrist is in fact causing a shut face etc. Does anyone know for sure? I tend towards an arched lag-insured left wrist at the top I can also clear the left side of the course with the best of them! This would be good to know. Okie out.

A Shut-and-Open Case
 

Do this experiement:

Hold the club in the left hand only and extend your arm (with the clubshaft in-line) directly in front of you (and opposite the left shoulder) until the shaft is parallel to the ground. Now, BEND you left wrist (so that the shaft moves horizontally to your left and out-of-line with the left arm). Maintaining this alignment, put the club down on the ground, and take a look at the clubface: It's CLOSED, right? That is, it looks left of the target line.

Now, again assuming the starting position as described above, ARCH your left wrist (so that the shaft moves horizontally to your right), then set the club down. The clubface is now OPEN, right? That is, it looks right of the target line.

So, until they make Inclined Planes different from Horizontal Planes, it's . . .

End of story!

:golfcart2:

Phew!
 

Thank you, Yoda.:salut: That is what I conveyed to the doubting master professional. I recieved a visceral reaction from the aforementioned authority, although the witnesses were given pause for thought. I needed the safety net of a superior intellect...Bucket does not take my calls anymore!

REALLY? Have you tried to holla? Shoot me a message . . . you may have the wrong # . . . we need to catch up . . . ain't got on intellect though.