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Medical Model Posture vs. Functional
There seems to be a divergence of opinion on what the BEST POSTURE at Address and Impact should ideally be. One model says that the spine, when viewed from down the line should be nearly straight... from the neck all the way to the tail bone. Some recommend a slight cup at the base of the spine. I believe this is called the LORDONIC CURVE. I have heard it recommended that the shoulders be slightly pulled back, in order to give a straight appearance of the back.
It is usually also said that in order to maintain this posture, the core muscle strength must be good, as well as the abdominal muscle strength in general. Now, it is interesting that few, if any tour players that do strive to stand similar to this, can maintain this posture on the downswing. The tour player does not usually pull the tailbone in radically, as many amateurs do, but they do not keep the back straight, nor the head up. At least I have not seen one that does. Mr. Jack Nicklaus, for example, is sometimes criticized for his posture. However, his posture is probably similar at Address, and Impact. Annikan, some time back, posted a picture of Sam Snead. He did not have even close to the MEDICAL MODEL POSTURE, however, he was a very effective striker of the ball, and lasted for many years without much injury that I know of. Let's talk about this some. We don't want to be too slumped over, but artifically rigid is not good either. What do you think? |
I'm unqualified to talked about a Golfing 'Medical Posture' in general and how anyones posture may contribute to "back problems'.
However, I can say that my posture purposely includes a 'small dip' in my lower back. It isn't exaggerated. It helps (somehow) the hips and shoulders stay more connected (locked together?). |
Maybe someone (Annikan) could talk a little about releasing the tailbone.
EC :salut: |
How does this relate to a neutral spine?
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I feel a presence . . ..
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Because you are my numero uno GOLF HERO . . . I shant make light of your "releasing the tailbone" post . . . If Mike O said it . . . I'm on it like cat turds in sandboxes. Poof he's gone . . . |
I went to a very well renowned physical therapist who helped me with shoulder re-habbed. He was a sports PT and was booked up for months. Only reason i got it was because of my doctor who really felt i should go to him and got me to see him on a regular basis.
We discussed a lot on posture and on wrist positions as he was curious about how i spoke about TGM and about solid compression. Some interesting tidbits: - a "visually flat" left wrist (as i prefer and others) is actually not the most "supportive" position for the left wrist to be in. It's actually a weaker position BUT! The larger more bent right wrist is an EXTREMELY powerful and supportive motion so it makes up for that more "visually flat" left wrist. - As for the back, this whole "overly straight back" that a lot of tour players emphasize and is easily seen in Adam Scott's procedure is actually not something he feels is what the back should be doing in that situation. I took my normal golf posture and the only thing he did was make me "roll" my shoulders back more in their rotator cuffs as it's a much more supportive move for the massive amount of torque generated on the left shoulder and he also had me stick my butt out just a little which NATURALLY gets the lower spine in a more supportive move for the backswing. He said the back should then be allowed to "round" near the shoulder blades as by trying to physically straighten will cause injury down the road unless you are extremely fit and flexible as it won't show "as much" as he said. The main thin he was looking for is for yard stick to hit in 3 places: 1) lower back 2) mid back 3) back of head There will be NATURAL curves between 1/2 and 2/3. I also discussed with him the idea of "locking in the bend" in the right knee. He said that is disaster for the knee and the hip over time and felt it was the main contributor to Jack N's hip problem later in life. He agreed with me that it should be allowed to straigten SOME but "locking" it straight wasn't the best idea either. Just some things i've learned and am sharing. |
Thanks very much Jim, excellent post!
Any chance you can post a swing sequence? Matt |
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Neutral spine is not functional in the game of G.O.L.F EC...don't get me started on this..... Lagster...u2... NOone plays froma straight spine and the spine angle doesn't stay the same..Period end of story...I'm biting my tongue..tying my hands behind my back....blindfolded....duct tape ..no more questions... BUT.. Perhaps some pics at a later date? |
Oh geez ..I cannot restrain myself
Many in the Golfdom would say the following posture...is "The WAY" Aaron Baddeley  However...look closely... Do his eyes look with a natural gaze at the ball?...or is he lookking down through the bottom of his vision? Do you think the Tailbone sticking out that much producing an excessive amount of lumbar curve is natural...let alone good for your lower back? Let's take a look at some others..... Charles Howell  Grant Waite  Do you see some differences? Is Badds Functional... NOT let me count the ways..not 2 night!!!:eyes: |
Like Moe Norman said about leadbetter - artifical strokes for artificial folks.
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Ha. Baddeley looks like he's gonna fall over.
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One of my colleagues asked an expert in the field who is the founder of Peak Performance how many players on the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour set up with your recommended "Neurtral Spine"...The expert replied " Not One!"...the PGA Professional said "Thank You" and then proceeded to sit down witha silent ovation from his colleagues...
Can you hold the gaze of the object(ball) in the center of the fovial field with neutral spine? Are the Eyes and Ears vital in relationship to balance and stability? Is the Spine divided into Cervical, Thoracic, Lumbar & Sacral Segments? Does everyone have the same "everyday posture"?  Is posture Learned/Conditoned? How many "experts" have won major torurnaments? Here's a small sample of some quantifiable measurements? Cervial Spine....20 degrees of Flexion Thoracic Spine....20 degrees of Flexion Lumbar Spine...20 degrees of Flexion Sacrum....Slight External Rotation As you can see...hardly neutral spine.... Use a 2 Leighton Flexometers an the Truth will reveal that in G.O.L.F. the spine is hardly neutral!!!  How many of these cats have "Neutral Spine?" For the Data freaks out there!!!  |
I am sorry I asked the question, it is obvious that by the response that there is no answer forth coming. The use of PGA and LPGA pro's in itself is not an answer.
For I ask how many PGA and LPGA pro's have an uncompensated golf swing as defined in either of the two TGM stroke patterns? The fact that none exist doesn't mean it is not part of the G.O.L.F., only that individuals have choosen variations. |
No need to apologize ...the photos tell the truth...This is not a personal opinion type of thing....Look at the photos study them and come you your own conclusions...
"Not One".....is in neutral spine! or is there? Martee..no need to take it personal...just backing my post up with photos and data...just means that I'm not making this up in my own little mind...and how many PGA pros or PT's have gone into this depth...I know a few of them...I'm not alone here!!! To answer your question...directly... the Spine Angle at address and the Spine angle at Impact are not the same therefore dynamically...always changing throughout the stroke....and those are the Facts..not my Opinion BTW..proper teminology would Angles of the Spine...not The Spine Angle....since there are 4 sections of the Spine that are to be measured |
Obvously not an expert in this field, me that is.
From my limited research and reading and attempting to adopt the TGM philosophy of the uncompensated stroke I submit the following... 1. Static posture (standing in this case), neutral spine, will define for an individual the optimal relationships. 2. Dynamic posture will maintain the optimal relationships (spacial and temporal) for instantaneous axis rotation of any/all working joints. That is if done correctly. 3. Angle of the spine at address will differ from the angle at impact unless the address position is the Fix Address (probably never be the same but close). 4. Angle of the spine at Impact in theory can be pre-define for any golfer based on a. The golfer intends to use the golf club as it is designed b. The golfers physical traits (height, arm length, etc) are taken into account. 5. Angle of the spine at Address is more a function of what the golfer has learned so the Impact position can be obtained with the selected components being employed. Traits of the Neutral Spine can be found in many golf writings when defining the address position. It seems to me that as in other activities as well if you have a known starting point, the neutral spine, that moving into the address and impact positions, it will simplify achieving the alignments that the golfer is striving to achieve. Rather than create a situation where the golfer must fabricate movements, the golfer can have natural movements intended to maintain. Just some thoughts. Oh, my question what how does the neutral spine relate which is what I have attempted to give my thoughts on. Also I keyed on the title Medical.. |
Good Information
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Good information Annikan! It is obvious that none of the players' pictures has the NEUTRAL SPINE. Tiger Woods is the closest, but if you look at his IMPACT alignments, his eyes have moved considerably from the address posture, his head has dropped, and his upper spine has rounded out. Now... there is a difference between the pictures here, and the pictures of many amateur golfers. These tour players have an athletic look to them. The amateurs often have VERY excessive curves of the upper spine, and have the tail bone tucked under them. I suppose some of the players that have very poor posture... can sometimes get into better postures(that end up looking similar to the pro pictures) by trying to get NEUTRAL. However, how many of these people are actually hindered, by radically departing from their NATURALLY BEST POSTURE? Another reason often given for the NEUTRAL POSTURE is to promote a bigger spinal rotation on the backswing and downswing. However... all the players pictured, have good, if not huge shoulder turns. The lowered head, and slightly curved upper spine, does not seem to hinder them. What do you think? |
Now ..one thing in this discussion that has been overlooked is "Neutral Pelvis"...Neutral Pelvis is approximatley 30 degrees...and if you've ever looked at a lot of golf postures they range from 20- 40 degrees of waist bend...Coincidence???
I can not stress the importance of the ears as a marker and the tailbone location as a marker...take a look at the pics.....positioning of the ears....rotation of the pelvis locating the tailbone... |
Nicklaus' posture was obviously highly functional but in light of his recent comments probably not bio-mechanically optimal ... When asked this Monday if he has any plans to play another tour event, Nicklaus shook his head and replied, "Maybe if I get a new body," he said. "I've lost three inches of height. My vertebrae sit one on top of the other, so I just can't move. I have no ability to turn or do anything else."
Which posture for the average sized - height, limbs, etc - golfer and motion offers the best alignment of the spine in terms of efficiency of result and safeguard from injury? thanks. |
Neutral Pelvis
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Neutral pelvis? How is Mr. Baddeley's pelvis situated in relation to NEUTRAL in the picture posted? Which pro's pictures have a neutral pelvis? Don't SOME the back problems of Mr. Nicklaus show up more from the face-on view? He had/has the "reverse C". |
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Very Complex Question..but a Great Question....What ever delivers the optimum alignment and application of force...even if it does destroy the body per Jack Nicklaus.... The movements in the golf swing are by no means simple and safe on the body... If you want a golf swing to be safe...It is built like a "School Bus"..which is safe..but at high speeds around tight curves is very unsafe... If you want to a high performance golf swing..It should be built like a "Ferrari or Porsche" and able to maintain speed and stability through tight turns... At this Medical Profession who is recently getting involved in the Golf Industry who have a lot of knowledge about the Human Machine...have very little knowledge in regards to the Golfing Machine and it's trillions of Variations are suggesting we set up and drive "School Buses"... PGA Tour Players drive high performance machines...eventually they will wear down or even crash!!!!!! |
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Nicklaus back problems come from not only the rotation ...but the excessive changes form lateral bending left and right versus the flexion forward and extension backward...The Angles in the 4 sections of his spine were constantly changing.... |
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Back Trouble
Some tour players I can think of that have/had back trouble are...
George Archer Paul Azinger Michael Bradley Fred Couples Ernie Els Hale Irwin Peter Jacobsen Davis Love Jack Nicklaus Frank Nobilo Payne Stewart Lee Trevino Fuzzy Zoeller Some that have played/playing for many years with little or no injury that I have heard of... Sam Snead Gary Player Craig Stadler Nick Price Miller Barber Jay Haas Raymond Floyd Chi Chi Rodriguez Dana Quigley Do you think the difference is technique, genetics, posture, conditioning... or other factors? |
Well ...you got Stads and Gary Player in the healthy column...so I think the "conditioning theory" is out the window...but I could believe genetics and perhaps style....
BTW...I know the only conditioning Stads enjoys is Duck Hunting in South America and working out with 12 ounce curls... |
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