How far is the Low Point Plane Line from the Impact Plane Line?
 

Is it the width of the ball? Half? From the center of the ball to the deepest part of the center of the divot?

d = v x t
 

The clubhead speed times the time the ball sticks to the clubface.

It is entirely based on ball location. I suppose you could think about low point in relation to the positioning of the left foot and your individual stance widths, for example.... inside foot for driver - middle of foot for long irons - outside foot for short irons....

I mean how far OUT from the Impact Plane Line? So if the ball is back from low point then the Impact Plane Line and the Low Point Plane line are PARALLEL lines . . . so what would be the distance between the two? Since we have an Inclined Plane we have an Inside-Out Impact . . . but how much OUT is there would you say?

Lets take Wedge . . . 7 iron . . . 5 iron?

If you accept the premise that if the Impact Plane Line and Low Point Plane line are one of the same when the ball is located at low point, then you have two variables to identify.

1. Ball location with respect to the Low Point
2. Angle of the Inclined Plane

Sounds simple but when a golfer located the ball back further other adjustment are made to accomodate the ball position so that the height of the ball does not have to be increased. Think about it, if you play the ball off you rear foot with a wedge and your normal divot is say 4 inches long, moving the ball back that far without any other changes would make for a very long and very deep divot.

Matt had a diagram which showed the lines rather well.

I'm just trying to figure out how much ACTUAL OUT there really is. But I think the OUT that you feel and try is probably way more than there actually is.

So could you tee a ball up and then put another tee in the ground where the lowest point of the divot is to get an estimate?

There is probably some formula that could solve the problem I would think . . .

I think its primarily to do with plane angle. Lets say your plane is at 60 degrees to the ground. For every centimetre you go down, you'll go out half a cm. Say you impact the ball (for arguments sake) with the leading edge at ground level at separation - at separation your impact point should be directly in the (horizontal) middle of the ball on the target line. And say you dig at divot 1 cm deep, then low point (for the horizontal middle of your club/horizontal sweetspot) should be 0.5cm outside the target line/horizontal middle of the ball). Of course it may look further out - by the distance from the middle of your club to the toe - because that's where the outside of you divot is.

Chris

Finally
 

I hope we get to an answer on this topic. And not simply that there's too many variables to produce an answer.

If we look at 2-C-1#1 we must be able to give a value for the offset in the impact point and offset to low point.

CW

I think you are on it.

Putting
 

Great topic fellows. Homer basically said that all strokes
were the same. For overspin, he illustrated the impact above
the center of the ball with reverse loft. There is a big
question at weather the shaft was leaning forward or weather
he was using a putter with reverse loft. Anyway I guess this
brings up the question of, should you impact the ball above
the equator and go to the lower pont.. Some on the forum
suggest playing the ball forward of low point and impact above
low point which suggest deaccelation and less compression.
Bobby Locke suggest this method in saying that the club should
reach the ball before the hands. How about fail? After the
head of the clubhead passes the handle the the clubhead works
back to the handled causing deacceleration. Homer did suggest
impacting the ball at LOW POINT AND ABOVE THE CENTER OF THE
BALL. How can you do this and still go to the second plane
line down and in front to the first plane line? The same old
question, should you impact above the ball and then go to
to the second plane line forward and down from the first
plane line? In a conversation with Lynn, Homer said that
Lynn could move the ball back in his stance, using a bullseye
putter, but this suggest a shaft leaning forward. From the
literal words of Homer, pg 74, Transfer power, the swinger
can use A "REVERSE LOFTED" PUTTER for a precision "LOW POINT"
IMPACT - really a very accurate and simple procedure. If a
putter is on the gound a impact with reverse loft, the putter
actuall impacts the ball above center. This suggest that if
the ball was placed at low point, the second plane line could
be obtained without having to lean the putter forward providing
that the putter had reversed loft build in to in. Maybe this
discussion sould be in the putting section, but we are talking
about the low point plane line. I guess the overall question.
is what about the low point plane line for putting?

Some thoughts to consider regarding Low Point and Low Point Plane Line

1. Low Point is defined by the lead edge of the club head or the sole of the club head based on the stroke being played in referenc to the ground.
2. Low Point Plane Line is defined using the Low Point and constructing a parallel line to the Plane Line.
3. Low Point is not defined as full extension of the Primary Lever Assembly.
4. Low Point does not have to reside in the ground or at ground level (special shots, tee shots, putts, any shot that doesn't create a divot)


Some thoughts to consider regarding Impact Point and Impact Point Plane Line

1. Impact Point is define as the first moment of contact between the club head and the ball. (Ideally on normal shots this would be at the equator to the inside of the ball vertical axis)
2. Impact Point Plane Line is defined using the Low Point and construction a parallel line to the Plane Line.
3. Impact Point is only on the Impact Point Plane Line at the initial point of contact and can be located on the Impact Point Plane Line after separation based on the stroke.
4. Impact Point and Separation can not be the same point.
5. Impact Point is normally inside and above the Separation Point which both are above the Low Point. (3 dimensional golf stroke)



Next what is the impact of the ball location with regard to Low Point?

How does Ball Height from the ground impact this?

Martee! Super graphics man! Question. . . on the overhead view . . . could you draw the LOC in there too? Since we are of course sustainers and manipulators of the LOC.

Awesome!

I think the height of the ball has nothing to do with it. But I do think the position of the ball in relation to low point has a HUGE effect.

The intent of the graphic was to show relationships. Including the LOC would require adjustment, need to think about this.

Ball Height is CRITICAL to Low Point and to Ball Position. Also Ball Position is critical to Angle/Arc of Attack.

If you were to position a golf ball in what would be your normal position, say for a 7 iron. Let say that was 1 inch forward of the center of your stance.

Now without making any adjustments, place a ball located off your rear foot, resting on the ground as was the original ball.

With the 7 iron how would you be able to hit the ball nearest your rear foot? Without adjusting your body or swing, what adjustments do you need to do to the ball to be able to make impact with the sweetspot of the club? Raise the Ball? Move the Ball in closer to the rear foot?

Granted doing this will not send the ball along the same target line that the center ball would, but this allows you to see the 3 dimensional golf stroke, backward, in and up, forward down and out.

When a golfer decides to change ball location, the golfer is required to make other adjustments as well to keep the 3 dimensional stoke in tact and make good contact.

Ever give much thought about hitting a ball which is lodged in a bush? Do you set up as normal but that the ball is just teed high?

Martee . . . I don't think the ball in relation to the ground has anything to do with it. Could be wrong though . . . but Low Point has no relationship to the ground. Its relationship is to the left shoulder. Regardless of where the ball is air or ground, there is a low point. You could tee up a driver and play it way back in from low point and still hit it. You'd just have to go out more right? Heck if I know.

Anyway . . . The Line of Compression is the Principle of Golf so it HAS to be relevant to the discussion.

LINE OF COMPRESSION Example – bullet hole through a baseball
Mechanical – the line through center of that area from which material flows when displaced by a compressing force.
Golf – The direction of the Impact Force, as related to the various centerlines, for determining Ball Behavior

My arguement would be the following:

Per 1-L #10,13, 14, & 15

10. The Lever Assembly must be driven through Impact by an On Plane force (moving toward the Plane Line).
13. The Clubhead travels Down-and-Out until it reaches its “Low Point.”
14. Divots are taken “Down-and-Out” – not just “Down.”
15. The Club starts up-and-in after “Low Point” but thrust continues down plane during the Follow-Through.

So the Line of Compression would have a relationship (or be along) the Angle of Approach which would just be the line connecting the Impact Point and Low Point?

Low Point Reference to the ground is because it is where it is located, at least the relationship for up and down.

Full extension of the primary assembly defines the longest radius of the golf stroke from the left shoulder.

Left shoulder relationship to the low point ??

Your question initially was regarding the impact point to low point and thier respective plane lines.

The amount of down and out is to a large degree defined by the incline plane angle.

The reason for the test of the two balls was to demonstrate the 3 dimensional stroke, to show that the impact point is relative to ball position when the swing center remains constant. The converse to this would be to change the incline plane angle, ball position the same and note the change both in height relative to the ground and position to the target line of the Low Point.

Low Point in essence is the point at which the golf stroke changes from the down stroke to the forward stroke.

Very cool graphics, should be etched in the mind of every hacker, starting with me!

Questions(aside from the original how far question):

1)In overhead view, I assume that the red and green lines could converge then seperate again if you changed the ball position, plane angle?

2)Again in overhead view, the clubface angles seem a bit eccentric, is that for clarity?

CW

You got it . . . As the ball moves farther back of low point the distance between the Impact Plane Line (red) and the Low Point Plane Line (green) increases . . . But they are ALWAYS parallel because the both lie on the Plane. And if the ball is positioned AT LOW POINT the lines converge and are the same.

Not sure about the clubface angle . . .

But golf clap to Martee for some fantastic work!!!!