David Orr - The Right Forearm Takeaway
 

Fasten your seatbelts and prepare for maximum compression as David Orr (annikan skywalker) explains and demonstrates the biomechanics of the right forearm takeaway.

David has graciously provided footage from one of his training classes which was filmed and edited by 6Bmike.

This is one that you will watch, then turn around and buy another ticket to watch again...and again...

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery/files/517/RFT.wmv

Thanks David!

Cool Stuff :)

I didn't know you could do videos :)

Oh yeah..I forgot..the right forearm pickup is when I start "Flexion at the Right Elbow"...and very minimal flexion at the Shoulder...

Always remember something after the fact!!!!!

New Annikan Video
 

Great stuff, David. Thanks again to our own 6bmike for the camera work and production. And, of course, to Bagger Lance for making it happen on LBG.

Annikan got a great video face ! Looks alot better on video than on Photos.

Thank you for sharing, putting a simple yet complex idea to become Layman, masterfully done ! And thank you 6b and admin .


Looking forward for more.

Well the right shoulder is connected to the....
 

There are some very cool things about this video that intrigued me. Well over 95% of the gofling public use a pivot controlled hands backstroke. We have heard for decades that the big muscles move the backswing. Why then is this procedure superior?

A few teasers -

Think about the ball and socket joint of the right shoulder for a moment. Is this purely a lateral motion of the right shoulder joint (fanning)?

When does the horizontal motion of the right shoulder joint come into play?

What direction is the right elbow allowed (by nature) to move?

Why is this procedure superior to a big muscle backstroke? (Acutally a combination of many, many small trunk and back muscles working in unison because the only big muscles of the upper trunk are lats and chest muscles)

When the right shoulder joint moves laterally, what tendons, muscles. and their attached bones are pulled as a result?

Should these pulled trunk muscles be active or passive?

Dust off Gray's Anatomy if you need to.

Excellent
 

I have been doing this procedure with great success. Once you get it,then you can play around with how much extensor action to use, how much shoulder turn to use...etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but once I get the power package (strut)to the top of the backswing, I keep it there and then start the lower body hip slide and let things fall where they may. My power package comes down in one piece.

I still pull the driver a little, but I am crushing the irons.

Mind if i try?
Think about the ball and socket joint of the right shoulder for a moment. Is this purely a lateral motion of the right shoulder joint (fanning)?

Why is this procedure superior to a big muscle backstroke? (Acutally a combination of many, many small trunk and back muscles working in unison because the only big muscles of the upper trunk are lats and chest muscles)

Do not let the pivot gets in the way of delivery path/line, TGM. The Trunk simply reacts to the thought of educated hands' Motion.

When does the horizontal motion of the right shoulder joint come into play?

I was taught from body controlled pivot to hand controlled pivot simply, the right forearm lift the rightshoulder and the right shoulder pushes the left shoulder etc.

Should these pulled trunk muscles be active or passive?

Passive


What direction is the right elbow allowed (by nature) to move?

I am not very sure about this. but I think extensor action is force below plane Tricep pulls the elbow below plane. If there is extensor action and you pull your trunk back using forearm takeaway. the elbow would react to the hands.ie the hand pulls the elbow. That is why extensor action is very important in the elbow component. It should be allowed to move freely on a plane dependant on elbow variation. Pitch you allow roll + fan. punch you only allow fan. all reacting to the motion of the hands, Do you need to think about it? not really

Thanks for letting me try . I hope my Master had taught me well.

Is it superior tho? (all the time)

Onion Peels
 

It's really not that complicated, but for armchair work like we do here it can be really enlightening to understand how these things work.

Because when the wheels fall off, we at least know why, and how to correct it so the next shot is pure.

The beauty of the right forearm takeaway is that it's a more accurate and controlled procedure for most, because the hands are the command post for the alignments. David's emphasis at the end of the video.

I like it because the end result at the end or top of the backstroke can be more reliable than a pivot thrown hands location. That end result of a RFT is a hands position which is aligned to the selected plane, an upper torso position that is coiled without much slack, and hips that are positioned to lead the downstroke pivot action. Everything is turned and aligned "just enough".

Powerful stuff.

That said, one could argue that a pure swinger who allows the weight of a "thrown" on-plane clubhead to pull the body into ideal alignments would have a superior procedure. Maximum tendon pull is what swingers use to trigger changes in direction for the shot at hand. This assumes a lot. The inital startup to get the clubhead traveling on a managable plane is critical and sensing just the right amount of tendon pull is vital. Without alignment knowledge, It's pure golf artistry ala Bobby Jones that is very difficult to teach most golfers, unless it's engrained at a very early age. It get's more complicated as we get older because those darn tendons change.

For the rest of us, this is the next best thing and up for debate if it's just as good as a thrown clubhead backstroke.

Back to the video - What do you think of Davids comment, "The right forearm takeaway is really a shoulder turn takeaway"?

Super job David and thanks again. You've peeled the onion another layer or two.

Down Plane Power Package Transport
 

This is a wonderful description, Rich. Your journey continues, but you are many miles down The Path. And I could not be more proud of your Pilgrim's Progress!

Million Dollar Policy
 

Said Homer Kelley:

"The right forearm and #3 pressure point...you'll want to insure'm for a million bucks."

Why is it more superior ? I know that some tgm "guru" made an assumption that it should be shoulder turn takeaway because it is more "powerful". Did he proof it?

I thought of this very wrong and let me try to proove it.
----------------part 1
Is it more "precise" to guide your hands to the desired plane so that your shoulder reacts to it. Or the other way round?

If u use a RFT, Your shoulder still does turn as fully but impossible to overuturn as it should only its more under control right?

How would you do a snap release with a Shoulder controlled pivot? Same question , how would you setup maximum trigger 1 2 3 using pivot controlled hand? or easier another way round? It is already proven to me, Hand controlled pivot is much more efficient, and repeatable.

-------------------- part 2
Unless the arguement is pure Force or momentum of the shoulder is greater than the hands. Now What is force? Force = 1/2 Mass x Velocity.

Mass = Affecting these are ; impact alignments(leakage and compression), Lag, stability, flat left wrist blah blah and your weight . I mean HOW exactly you put the weight of your shoulder behind the ball? You cannot because your shoulder cannot increase in weight .

Speed= from trigger delay 1 2 3. and 4. Try this .. Holding a whip use your body turn as fast as you can with the arm as far out as you can.

Then with ONLY your right arm , hand and wrist and whip it as fast as you can ... Question Which is maybe 3 x faster? can your body even create enough speed for the whip to crack alone? ... of course there are exception to different weight of the whip etc, You must have enough strength to fully control the whip. You get more speed with the arms and hands , alignments, Not the brute moving of the shoulder. You can turn them fast but fast acceleration of your shoulder and body = lost of rhythm, tempo = lost control. Thus why 5-0 to control the force and Monitor the pressure point as it provide instant feedback.


-----------------------------------

That is why the Intro and chapter 2 is very important, the role of left and right arms. endless belt, alignments. If u do not understand that 2 chapter more or less. I think More or less you cannot understand the whole TGM.

"Do not let the pivot gets in the way of delivery path/line," TGM <~~ thats why its here.

Another thing, Why is the Endless belt there? Physics. Constant belt speed and accelerating at the end! In order to control the swing , you must have Rhythm, Tempo. mean constantly accelerating.

Will it be difficult to control the swing if your pivot is swinging as fast as possible ? or let your educated hands create the speed and your body reacts to the hand?

Your conclusion? Who is teaching junk?

I don't believe in everything my dad told me.

Lets talk about Homer Kelly,

The body controlled pivot swing is obviously so much easier to understand and convincing. if he write a book based on that, well he won't need so many confusing chapters to explain it. WHY he took the effort to explain SO many extra things? He took a good part of his life challenging his believe i guess. and keep correcting and challenging the concept.

To give the benifit of the doubt. Kelly may not gave a Total solution still. Someone will for instance may discover some other things to add on to the golf machine to either explain things better, or a better procedure, added components etc, or revamp the whole concept of the core of TGM. Who knows, i am waiting :) But please at least proove it like Homer do.

Would it be correct to say the RFT is really a right shoulder turn takeaway and everything responds to that, i.e. left shoulder has to respond because the left hand is on the grip? If we were using both forearms to take the club back, up, and in would it then be a shoulder turn takeaway?

Matt

Superiority confusion
 

Guys i use my pivot to supply momentum to swing my hands to the top. However i still perform right forearm tracing and monitor the pressure points in my hands. Yet by what i've read on this thread i would be thrown in the inferior pivot controled hands group as my right forearm does not drag everything to the top. Is this correct? As i'm just using the same concepts for a swinger taught for the downstroke but for the backswing as well.

On another note i've experimented with the right forearm dragging everything to the top and as a swinger found it hard to get to grips with. For me it seemed to encourage hitting tendancies as i found it hard changing the power source from backswing to downswing. When using my pivot as the power source i get more of a feeling of the swinging forces early in the swing and it seems a more natural transition into the downswing.

I have the exact same issue.

Momentum-- Maybe this way i explain better ya?

In a swinger you swing the club up using forearm (shaft pointing to center and a start up swivel enable that). In a downswing, you can use the Shoulder Throw or pivot thrust ( same? but i know its shoulder throw ) , feeling like the end of swing is maintained halfway down the swing and then the sequencial release. Thats how One way swinger use the Pivot. But still not body controlled pivot because the body have to tilt so with the intend that hand can be suported by the shoulder to go down blah blah etc .. too long

In hitter you "Lift it up " using forearms from impact fix and no roll takeaway. Use hand,arm, delivery line throw and simulaneos release.

dont know which chapter.]

Does that give u a clue? ..

Sorry I brought the word superior up. There is nothing wrong in using the pivot to carry or throw the hands to the end of the backstroke. As long as your hands know where they are going.

You are in very good company.:)

Cheers for the clarification Bagger :salut:

A guy named Joe Norwood...used to teach the same takeaway ...Ever read his book..."Golf- O - Metrics"....Another Cult Classic!!!!!


IMO opinion there is nothing wrong with a "Takeaway with the Torso"(Pivot or Shoulder Turn Takeaway)...Just be prepared for a plane shift whether intentional or NOT (BTW...I don't have problem with plane shifts either, just keep the base line straight). It is compatible with a "No Wrist Action Takeaway" which would set up later a Single Wrist Action and Snap Loading....Emphasis on More Physics...Just a Little Less Precision...but still effective enough for 18 Majors...BUT after doing both..I prefer the RFT with Start Up Swivel of the left Wrist Action as my own personal pattern and preference..


The point is of the video is there are huge benefits to a RFT...More than you'd first expect...The first one being tremendous control and precision of your Machine!!!!

Can one effectively swing the club on one plane using the turned shoulder plane??
Standing inside a plane board set to the turned shoulder plane
one has to place the hands really high and level (See Dianne picture) at address. Does anyone actually do or teach this? PGA tour?

DiMarco
 

I think that Chris DiMarco sets up with the 'highest' hands on tour.

Bruce

Shift Stuff -- Zero And Otherwise
 

Assuming a Full Stroke, setting up with the Hands, Right Forearm and Clubshaft on a Zero Shift Turned Shoulder Plane is very awkward. Its Straight Line Delivery Path requires:

"...a steeper than normal Elbow Plane compensated with a reaching-out of the arms and a shifting of the Left Hand Grip that places the Clubshaft in the cup of the Hand instead of under the heel of the Hand, and the Right Hand Grip adjusted to correspond." [7-23]

Or, alternatively, the same "steeper" configuration of the Arms with the Left Wrist Uncocked (not Level).

I know of no top-ranked player who Addresses the Ball in this manner (although I suppose the late Moe Norman came close). In fact, most would consider this procedure 'Golf-like' only in its Short Shot applications (with the player standing close to the Ball and using Zero #3 Accumulator).

Full Shots, on the other hand, normally are Addressed with the Forearm positioned much more naturally on the Elbow Plane (and thus below the Turned Shoulder Plane). During Start Up, the Club begins its journey on that Elbow Plane and, as the Backstroke progresses, shifts from this very Flat Plane Angle -- again, very naturally -- to the more Upright Turned Shoulder Plane (where it can be aligned with Shoulder Turn Thrust and Support during the Downstroke). If the Club returns to the Elbow Plane during Release, then there has been a Double Shift (10-7-C) from Elbow Plane to Turned Shoulder Plane and back again. Otherwise, it is classified as a Single Shift (10-7-B) from Elbow Plane to Turned Shoulder Plane (with no return to the Elbow Plane). At no time does this 'tilting' of the Plane Angle affect its straight-line Baseline. In other words, despite any Plane Shift, the Sweetspot continues to point at the Plane Line (1-L #18 ). This alignment, combined with the Left Wrist held Level at Address, makes it unlikely that the player will be aware of either the Single or the Double Shift as they occur.

In my opinion, there is only way to execute a Zero Shift Stroke on the Turned Shoulder Plane from a 'normal' Address position of the Right Forearm and Clubshaft. And that is for the player to ignore this initial Elbow Plane positioning in the Start Up. Instead, he immediately must use the Right Forearm to take the Hands and Sweetspot directly up (and then down) one of the Straight Line Delivery Paths (10-23-A or C). Otherwise, his Address Position has committed him to one of the Angled Line Delivery Paths (10-23-B or D). This assumes, of course, that the player is not using Circle Path Delivery (10-23-E) and its 'no Axis Tilt' Pivot.

Finally, remember always that there are Three Zones of action: Body, Arms and Hands. Accordingly, at no time does the proper use of the Right Forearm and Elbow eliminate, replace or otherwise compromise the Pivot, either its Motion -- the sequenced movement of its Components -- or its geometrical alignments.

Helluve Post Lil'Green Man...Lots of Good Stuff here!!!!

Nice Post
 

I agree... Nice Post!!!

Some pictures from down-the-line would be nice here... that clearly show these things.

Do you see the Angle Line Delivery Paths as more of a NATURAL or INATE thing... or do you teach this to some?

Guys,

Are there any changes to the low point plane line when there is a plane shift?
If so, are there any ramifications?

cool
 

Turned into a great thread, Annikan.

I love this from Lynn-

Finally, remember always that there are Three Zones of action: Body, Arms and Hands. Accordingly, at no time does the proper use of the Right Forearm and Elbow eliminate, replace or otherwise compromise the Pivot, either its Motion -- the sequenced movement of its Components -- or its geometrical alignments.

Annikan- do you think they are ready for DNA? :)

Meat and Taters!!!
 

This here is some RED MEAT!!! I like RARE STEAK beat it in the head with a bat! Put it on the plate! Let the Yellow blood run out!!!

Bossman . . . could you describe what is going on in the Angled Line Delivery Paths from a DOWN THE LINE VIEW? I'm not smelling it from the face on pic as in 10-23-B. Does Angled Line have a Straight Line portion?

Also . . .

Accordingly, at no time does the proper use of the Right Forearm and Elbow eliminate, replace or otherwise compromise the Pivot, either its Motion -- the sequenced movement of its Components -- or its geometrical alignments

The proper use of the Right Arm does "eliminate, replace or compromise" the Pivot . . . BUT DOES IT NOT AID THE PIVOT?

Great post PreachaPokeChop.

Plane Angle Variations and Delivery Paths -- Connecting the Dots
 

The Delivery Paths (10-23) have their 'down-the-line' equivalents in the Plane Angle Variations (10-7).

Straight Line Paths (10-23-A and 10-23-C) imply a Zero Shift Plane Angle (10-7-A). Angled Line Paths (10-23-B and 10-23-D) imply Single and Double Shift Plane Angles (10-7-B and 10-7-C).

The Straight Line portion of an Angled Line Path occurs on the Elbow Plane (in both directions).

Master Annikan Skywalker.

I have a question though that is related to the takeaway and your Pivot. I think you are an expert in this area since you had posted 2 very intriging posts in this area.

We got the Upper chest and the Abdomen area and the Hip Area.

The question is , when you do the right forearm takeaway, Which of this area would you think of flexing more?

If you flex more at the upper shoulder point. You get a look like the shoulder (chest) and upper spine looks more rounded and stressed

If you flex more at the abdominal section, You get a look like Tiger wood. Pretty squared or relaxed shoulder on the top..

If you flex more at the hip. you get a more Sam snead/bendoyle relaxed torso look.

Do you think this make any structural or dynamic difference in Swinging or Hitting . Body controlled or Hand controlled Pivot?

Thanks.. Sorry I think sometime I over analyse thing.Or i may be speculating what i am guessing. but I am really curious what you think !

Great Question..Nuke..I really do not know the answer...I'd have to think about it over a period of time....

Honestly ...No...There are parts of the clip ...I wish I'd do over...


BUT....send me the????

Bleh .. sounds like I asked a silly question :(..

anyway... I thought when i in my shower ... ( swinging and testing in my shower .. something else besides my arm is swinging!)

The section which enable you to turn the most smoothly is the best "flex" location.

Say you got a big tummy. dont flex at the abominal instead use the upper chest or the hips.

If you are Old and it hurts to move your torso.. Use the Hips more.

But if you are really fit , I truly think the abdomen flex is the best. Because it have the most softest tissue and it enable us to swing the smoothest possible. And the Upper arms alignments is the easiest to be intacted this way?

On another hand, I saw somewhere its sometime good to Lock your spine using the axis tilt on the way down... well, I am not an expert.. Just a Noob trying to have some fun challenging the idea.

Just a thought. what do you think about my deduction , Am i daydreaming ?

Effect Of Plane Shifts On the Low Point Plane Line
 

The Low Point Plane Line and the Impact Plane Line are always parallel lines on the face of the same Inclined Plane. During a Plane Shift, the Plane 'tilts' to its new Angle around its axis of rotation, the immovable Impact Plane Line (1-L-18 ). Thus, the Low Point Plane Line is re-located to conform with the new Angle. That is, it moves more 'out and up' with a Shift to a Flatter Plane and more 'in and down' with a Shift to a more Upright Plane.

Regarding ramifications, the Geometry of the Circle (Clubhead Orbit) remains the same: Per 1-L-13, "The Clubhead travels Down-and-Out until it reaches its Low Point." But, since "Divots are taken 'Down and Out' -- not just Down" (1-L-14), a Shift to a Flatter Plane results in a more shallow Divot. Conversely, a Shift to a more Upright Plane produces a deeper Divot.

Try Again-- Reword
 

.......................................

Do you believe the Angled Line Delivery Paths are a "NATURAL" thing, and should probably not intentionally be attempted, or manipulated?

Or... is the FEEL of a Straight Line... even when an Angled Line happens?

Plane Angle
 

How would use an actual plane as a training tool when there is a plane shift from elbow plane to turned shoulder plane? (10-6a to 10-6b) I have been trying to build a plane similar to the one pictured in a previous post showing Yoda several years earlier.

CalSr

Plane Shifts, Delivery Paths And Straight Line Thrust
 

Starting on the Elbow Plane is a natural movement. As is Shifting to the Turned Shoulder Plane during the Backstroke. In fact, staying on the Elbow Plane produces an extremely Flat Backstroke and is, in my opinion, an unnatural movement.

Regarding "Feel," the Thrust remains a Straight Line effort with all Delivery Paths, i.e., Straight Line, Angled Line and even Circle (6-E-2).

The Adjustable Plane Board
 

If you are going to build a full Plane Board, you need to make it adjustable. Train Start up and early Backstroke on the Elbow Plane, then adjust the Plane Angle to Turned Shoulder.

We did some work like this at my recent Academy in Germany. Some photos were taken of this process, but not by me. I'll see if I can't get the photos and put them up.

Readers who have access to the Explanar training device have it a bit easier. You can set the Explanar to the Turned Shoulder Plane Angle and, with the Clubshaft lying on the circular frame, still enjoy a 'normal' Address position. This arrangement permits the Hands and Clubshaft to begin their journey on the Elbow Plane and gradually make their way without incident to the Turned Shoulder Plane. See the photos of Brian Gay using the Explanar in post #90, Photos #13-15 http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...?t=2383&page=9.

david looking....
 

clean with the right arm....Like a Cat
(the right arm move)
Not to forget it won 3 tour events this year.