Lag, lag, and more lag.....
 

I'd love to get a bit more lowdown on lag. I have a lot of fog via the TGM applications still.


The general golf world considers lag the angle between the shaft and the left arm and how long it is maintained before impact. Does this fit in with TGM?

Many consider the benefit of good lag to be the catapulting acceleration of the clubhead thru impact, is this correct? Or is the bigger benefit as much to do with a better line of compression due to the forward leaning shaft, or both?

Many pro's double cock and create a very substantial angle, TGM'S recommended flying wedge work avoids the right wrist cock and would likely have less angle. It is quality of lag over quantity?

I have been reading Ted's descriptions of his hitting stroke with great interest. He seemingly goes from impact fix to the top via the magic of the right forearm with no extra bend in the right wrist. Am i wrong in thinking this would mean no extra angle would be created and his angles would fall well short of say 90 degree's? If so this would seem like quality over quantity for sure. It would also mean power comes from the straightening right elbow and proper impact line of compression as opposed to catapult speed. Apologies for the fogged up post, but obviously lag was extremely important to Homer to say the least and a lag 101 would be most appreciated by me.

Regards

John

yes, quality over quantity. The wrist cock is slight so Lag must be much more then just that. That would be a form of accumulator lag.

Lag means to follow.

The Clubhead follows the hands - that is clubhead lag.
The hands follow the body- that is pivot lag.

You load lag to the top and unload or release it in the downward stroke.

I love this: 6-C-0 "...at every point in the stroke from feet to clubhead. Every Lagging Componet places a Drag on its preceding Component...." =D>

Leadbetter doesn't teach this good stuff. [-(

When instructors say that Sergio has great Lag, they know only a small part of it. It is more then wrist cock angle.

I too find this to be an interesting topic. I found alot of information from Chucks site. He has an instructional article called The Secret of Golf which is very informative. I would love to hear more from Yoda and Ted.

6bmike wrote, "The wrist cock is slight so Lag must be much more then just that. That would be a form of accumulator lag."

All types of Lag are important. But it's a fact that #2 Accumulator Lag is THE major contributor to clubhead speed in a world class Swing.

Re: Lag, lag, and more lag.....
 

CLUBHEAD LAG... THE STRESS ON THE CLUBSHAFT IS MAINTAINED INTO SEPARATION OF THE BALL FROM THE CLUBHEAD, OR EVEN SUSTAINED BEYOND SEPARATION. This is usually sensed or felt by the player through the FIRST JOINT OF THE RIGHT INDEX FINGER(#3 Pressure Point).
I believe this is the most important Type of LAG.

#2 ACCUMULATOR LAG... RETAINING THE LEFT WRIST COCK ANGLE well into the Release stage of the Stroke(8-9). This can be sen in many tour players.

Some of the tour players are True Centrifugal Force Swingers. They may employ Double Wrist Cocks per 10-18-B. This may give them even more #2 Accumulator angle. This can actually be an advantage for this type of Swinger, because the "reverse rotation during Release-- return to Flat and Vertical Left Wrist-- inhibits Clubhead Throwaway."

PIVOT LAG... THIS TYPE INVOLVES THE PROPER SEQUENCING OF THE PIVOT COMPONENTS. "Pivot Lag is Body Power for Swingers(2-M-4), launching pad for Hitters(2-M-3), and for both, operates like a "gear train" to extend the Swing Radius of the Primary Lever to any point from the Shoulder Turn on down to the Feet(Zone#1)."

Re: Lag, lag, and more lag.....
 

ClubHEAD lag is the clubhead traling the shaft (a bending of the club)

There is also Accumulator Lag - such as the left wristcock being maintained. As well as Pivot Lag.

Re: Lag, lag, and more lag.....
 

It is MAINTAINING LAG PRESSURE that is the key. You can appear to maintain clubhead lag, and pivot lag and still give up lag pressure.

Lag pressure IS the 'heavy' feeling.

Lag pressure IS leverage.

Lag pressure IS "supporting the swinging on plane force"

This is why PP#3 is so important, it is the key to knowing that you have lag pressure. To feeling the 'loaded' club at transition, and the 'drag' feel of proper downward, hands leading impact.

Lag pressure is the key to compression.

You will know when you have it, you will 'hear' your shots sizzle, and impact will sound like a gun being fired.

Thanks again guys. Some GREAT reading there. It's good to see lag discussed, homer placed huge importance on it of course. All i need now is for Yoda's apprentice to comment :)

John

One thing i want to note is that lag pressure that you FEEL can be felt different by how/where you apply that PP#3 and by heavy/light swingweights as well.

Just figured i'd let you know that cuz i put my pp#3 a little bit more down the shaft and feel it in a different point on the index finger and will feel a much heavier lag with bigger swingweights than lighter ones.

Does this image depict clubhead lag? If so is the fact that the clubhead is not only behind the hands but also outside the arc of the hands significant when discussing lag?

Doing What Comes Unnaturally
 

I received the PM below and am posting my answer for all.

Yes, BB1. Left unhampered, Centrifugal Force will (1) Uncock your Left Wrist 'Hammer' (a Vertical Motion) and then (2) Swivel (as demanded by Grip Type) your Hands (a Rotational Motion) into their Impact Fix alignments.

But therein lies the problem...

The less-skilled Swinger overrides Centrifugal Force and actively thrusts the back of the Shaft (in a Horizontal Motion) via the #3 Pressure Point. This is False Feel Wrist Action (6-D-3), and it must be replaced by the correct Release Motions (4-D-0) before any real long-term progress can be made.

Hi, John....I'll add my two cents.

Not necessarily...all the importance placed on lag in The Golfing Machine is in relation to clubhead lag (more later). What you are referencing is merely 6-b-2-0 being maintained til early in the downswing - which, when released, results in serious acceleration due to the abbreviated travel time. Only in TGM is this differentiated to the best of my knowledge.

Yes! The forward leaning shaft dictates that again, clubhead lag is inherent. As Mike said, lag is defined as 'trailing',

Now...on clubhead lag (versus accumulator lag or pivot lag). As Tong stated I believe, clubhead lag is the weight of the clubhead resisting a change in direction. This, in turn, bends the shaft and as a result, places a pressure on your hands as a result of the bending shaft and this is called clubhead lag pressure. This is clubhead lag. The clubhead is now trailing your hands - not only in a vertical motion but also horizontally. Maintain at least your initial acceleration and the clubhead will continue to trail your hands - dont maintain it, and the clubhead will catch up with the hands - resulting in what is termed throwaway...clubheads are designed to be hit with clubhead lag....

Hope this helps.

Patrick

Thanking you sincerely phillygolf, GREAT post :)

Absolutely Tong! Lag pressure is only present in a dynamic condition. Simply saying that lag means to trail is a misnomer. Pose a clubhead behind the hands in static condition and there is no lag pressure. Lag is invisible and a bowed clubshaft is only "evidence" of its existence. The clubshaft in a statically posed trailing clubhead is as straight as an arrow. There are no forces acting upon it. Tong's got it right per usual!

EC

Yoda...aha love that distinction you feel and monitor the lag but let cf return your hands to impact fix...just what i've been working on thanks ajy

wow. I always thought Clubhead lag (not lag pressure) was just the head trailing the hands. But now I think I'm reading that you must have a bowed shaft for it to officially be Clubhead lag. How then, do you have clubhead lag in the Basic Motion, or when putting?

Clubhead Lag and Short Strokes
 

You do not have to have a visually 'bowed shaft' in order to have Clubhead Lag. For short strokes such as Basic Motion, that will probably never happen unless you use a whippy shaft. But trust me, even for putting, when I make my transition from the top of my backstroke (which will obviously be very short for a normal putt), I can definately feel that sweetspot resisting the change in direction via Pressure Point #3. Clubhead lag is an Imperative even for putting!