"Creation of Lag Pressure" by Ted Fort
 

Ted has frequently noted that the "Creation of Lag Pressure" is a key area of why his golf swing improved so much. As I watched and rewatched Ted Fort execute his downswing waggle in the "Address" Video, this slow, non violent movement didn't seem to be the primary source of the Ted's "Creation of Lag Pressure". (In the "Hitter's Row" video, Yoda certainly appears to generate a much higher amount of shaft bend with the more violent swinger's downswing waggle than what Ted Fort displays as his hips begin their move forward.

My eyes suggest that Ted Fort achieves a much higher percentage of his "creation of lag" "driving down to China" during his paddlewheel punch, than he does earlier in the downswing. Hoping to get confirmation as to whether or not my assumption is accurate?

Btw, in my humble opinion, the "Lynn Blake, Ted Fort, Jeff Hull Part Two" video is far and away the most important source of correct hitting information available on this website. If you are a Hitter and haven't yet studied Part Two of the Address Video, you are missing out on what I consider to be the most valuable source of Hitter's wisdow available on this website to date.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/v...se_images&g=30

Dude . . . Remember "Over-Acceleration is the menace that stalks all lag and drag." You don't need crazy amounts of lag pressure. You need an amount that you can SUSTAIN!!!

When asked about how much pressure . . . Homer Kelley said " You only need a pound of pressure."

This is why it is so vitally important to get with the message your hands are sending you . . . . it is a subtle message. If you overload your pressure points . . . it's a recipe for Throwaway.

Lag is fleeting . . . . the Hitter will feel it GREATER than the Swinger also in a different location because the Hitter's pressure point MUST NOT ROTATE. But still you don't want to feel copius amounts of pressure . . . just a pound'll do ya.

My query was not so much about "how much" lag pressure should be added to one's swing. Rather I was curious about how much lag pressure was being generated during the suprisingly non violent looking hitter's downswing waggle, and whether the majority of the lag wasn't being exerted instead during the punching motion that followed. No disrespect intended, but I would feel much more comfortable if the author of the hitter's swing I was studying, Ted Fort, might possibly provide the answer to my question.

No offense taken . . . I just thought you may want to know Homer Kelley's thoughts on the matter . . . I'd certainly like to hear Ted's as well.

One thing to think about would be in regards to your query the nature of Hand Acceleration required in the Hitters Stroke inorder to sustain the Lag Pressure loaded by the Pivot . . . the "non violent" looking Downstroke Waggle (and Start Down) has much to do with the nature of Hand Acceleration and thus Lag Pressure.

The Swinger's method of Acceleration vs. the Hitter's is where the answer to your query lies.

Be aware that 'quick startdown' in a swinger's case does not mean 'quick hands', but is a function of the pivot train moving from the feet up through the body at startdown - at its quickest producing snap loading via quick knee motion/hip action.

Here are two more observation on the same subject.

1) Lynn Blake discussing the subject of hitting with Ted Fort in part two of the Lynn Blake/Ted Fort/Jeff Hull Video said that "all the hitter's got is his right triceps and if you start using it too soon, your dead." That seems to be a suggestion that the slow downswing waggle simply sets up the right elbow properly "taking up the slack", so that that the right triceps is able to generate maximum lag punching through the ball?

2) There seems to be a signficant difference between Lynn Blake's hitter's start down waggle as shown in the previous Lynn Blake/Jeff Hull video and Ted Fort's. In Lynn Blake's startdown waggle, the right knee bends forward forward as his hips both rotate and move forward. From what I could see Ted's downswing waggle is limited to forward hip movement. Perhaps his hip rotation is reserved to support his "paddlewheel punch".

Are my eyes deceiving me? I wonder whether because Lynn switches between hitting and swinging frequently, it is impossible for him to modify all aspects of his swing throughly everytime he changes from his hitting swing to swinging swing?

You're observations are on point.

1. The Hitter's Startdown is SLOW for a reason. As a result of being total dependent on alignments, structure and the muscle power of the Right Tricep his max hands speed is achieved LATER because he doesn't have CF to help him. The Hitter must accelerate and drive ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE AIMING POINT. If the Hitter's Startdown is too quick he achieves his hand speed too soon.

On the other hand the Swinger is dependent upon CF rather than trying to stifle it. His max hand speed is reached much quicker and then CF just does its work. That is why he is dependent on a QUICK Startdown.

2. Also keep in mind the Pivot is PARALLEL to the Delivery Line selected. Hitters have the Angle of Approach Delivery Line available to them. This is a Cross Line procedure "out to right field." As a result, the Hip Motion is Cross Line rather than On-Line. The Swinger and the Hitter can use the true Geometric Plane Line which is a On-Line parallel slide to the Plane Line. The Swinger can also use the Arc of Approach procedure and as a result the Hip Motion is more of a Turn than a Slide thus being in compliance with the Curved line of the Arc of Approach Deliver Line.

As a result the Startdown Waggles will look different due to the differences in the Delivery Lines.

I can't speak for Yoda . . . but if I had to guess he traces the Straight Plane Line in BOTH his Hitting and Swinging procedures . . . and therefore the startdowns will look somewhat similar as a result of the Delivery Lines being the same.

Just a guess though.

I got the 4th at work. I thought this was illustrative . . . this passage didn't make it forward for some reason but this is from 10-19-0 in the 4th:

Drive Loading Rhythm is Muscular Acceleration - the same Lag Pressure in both directions with steadily increasing Handspeed.

Drag Loading Rhythm is "Centrifugal Acceleration" - the same Handspeed in both directions.

Here's another couple of interesting ones from the 4th that didn't move forward . . . .

10-19-A DRIVE LOADING . . . Drive Loading is the "Axe Handle" technique - an out-and-out Right Arm Thrust against the Clubhead Lag (Angular Inertia) striving to accelerate (radially) a Pre-stressed (Bent) Clubshaft, from a slow Start Down through Impact. . . Clubhead Throwaway here is usually due to over-acceleration.

10-19-C DRAG LOADING . . . Inertia can hold the Clubhead inside the arc of the Hands or hold to a Line Delivery Path (2-L). Centrifugal Force will set in when the Clubhead crosses to the outside and it will begin to pull into its own orbit. Then further acceleration will only cause uncontrolled "Hitting," guaranteeing Clubhead Throwaway.

Develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action (to the desired Handspeed per 10-15-B so that the Throw Out Action (6-B-3) can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke Sequence.

So the nature of Acceleration is VITAL to the sucess and distinction of the two procedures. The Swinger reaches his max handspeed quickly and then holds it constant. HE MUST NOT TRY TO ACCELERATE HIS HANDS FURTHER!!! On the other hand the Hitter MUST CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE otherwise he will fizzle out pre-maturely. The Hitter is sole dependent on ACCELERATION because he doesn't have CF to help him out.

E . . . What would be your description of INSTANT HIP ACCELERATION?

This is one that continues to elude Bucket.

What does it look/feel like? I think Hogan did it but are their any current players that would be posterboys?

Based on his demonstration of the hitter's startdown waggle in the original Jeff Hull acquired motion tape,. Yoda's startdown waggle is significantly different from Ted's. I used his downswing waggle demonstration as my model originally, and that is why I was so surprised when the part two Ted Fort interview video showed a significantly different form. Yoda is an astonishingly brilliant guy. But even so, I can't imagine that even he is quickly able to adjust minor aspects of his swing, so that everything is exactly as the book describes when he switches from swinger to hitter and then back again.

I appreciated the rest of your post very much bucket.

Yes sir . . . I think this is precisely why he uses Tracing the Straight Plane Line for both Hitting and Swinging. That way the Hip Motion can be the same Slide parallel to the Plane Line . . .

The Hitter using the Angle of Approach has the hips moving to Right Field which is an ENTIRELY different motion . . .

You are very wise to study the different startdowns because they must be compatible with the delivery line you select.

Hogan is an excellent example, Sergio too.

Easier to see in players who use a lot of float loading and/or snap loading (Nicklaus).

Imagine a whip motion - the root of 'instant' is that there is never any 'slack' in the whip - simply the change of direction causing the 'snap' in effectively two places - at loading/transition - and at both arms straight.

Cracking a whip going back, and cracking it going through - with the 'instant' startdown being the way you do it. If you were to pause at the top, you couldn't 'crack' the whip (load) on the backswing.

A hitter on the other hand, can get away with a pause at the top, because they don't need to build CF going back, they can simply use muscular force. In fact, it can be quite helpful for a hitter to literally stop at the top, to confirm delivery paths/lines, but a swinger doing the same would be in big trouble (no CF to provide power or square up the face).

I would like to agree with you, but I can't. Just because Yoda traces a straight plane line, doesn't mean that his hip's slide parallel to the Plane line. The delivery path waggle that Yoda demonstrated in the original Jeff Hull Acquired Motion video was far smoother than Jeff Hull's hip thrust, but it still resulted in a far more open hip position at impact, than Ted's model. If you look at Jeff Hull and Ted Fort at impact fix in Part 1 of the Lynn Blake/Ted Fort/Jeff Hull video, you will see a clear demonstration of how much more open Jeff Hull is at impact fix, compared to Ted Fort. I am willing to bet that Yoda at impact fix looks like Jeff at impact fix, not like Ted.

I PROMISE you that if Lynn Blake is tracing the Geometric Plane Line (not the Angle of Approach or Arc of Approach) his Startdown Hip Motion IS PARALLEL to the Plane Line.

You are correct that the Fix Alignments are different with regards to the Hips for Jeff vs. Ted. You will also note in the video that Jeff is using the Arc of Approach Procedure (watching the curved blur of the clubhead) as a result of the Parallel Pivot (parallel to the delivery line), his Hip Motion is more of a TURN or ROTARY. Ted on the other hand is using the pivot as a backstop. He also uses the Angle of Approach which is a cross line slide not a turn. As a result his hips will probably look "less" open at fix and impact.

Per 7-12 . . .

ALL motion – Pivot and Power Package – moves parallel to the selected Delivery Line. That is, prior to the Downstroke Turn, a Slide parallel with either the Angle of Approach or the Plane line per 2-J-3.

So at Impact Yoda could look more like Jeff because he traces the straight plane line and not the angle of approach. His hips slide is On Line not Cross Line and would like produce hips that are "more open."

key stuff here...
 

I think that I originally laboured under belief that Hitting was always - angle of approach/ cross line hip slide - and swinging was always arc of approach.

Recently , and moreso after reading this thread, i understand that hitting can be done either cross line/ angle of approach OR ( like Yoda) in-line / arc of approach.

As i see it Arc of approach is a direct equivalent to "straight plane line tracing" but both are seperate from "angle of approach"

Any time pp3 traces a straight plane line( square - square) you will naturally have an angle of approach procedure( ie. there will be an arc of clubhead blur causing inside out impact but inline/onplane motion)... you get to choose what image you want to see for yourself but the alignment is the same.

Arc of approach is purely for hitters when the target line of flight is different to the plane line? maybe and your motion is crossline?... gettting a bit vague here!

Anybody confirm this? Thanks

PS. Those old editions often explain things in a more straightforward manner... thanks bucket!

I learned a whole lot hanging out with you on this thread this afternooon. I went back and took another look at Ted Fort's downswing waggle. What I had previously thought was a parallel hip move, actually was a parallel hip move starting from a hip position that was pointing cross line because the hips had turned in that direction on the backswing. I had previously tried to have my hips move in a crossline direction and failed to figure out how to do that properly. Now I understand from watching Ted that the way to do that is to allow my hips to turn sufficiently on the backswing to get one lined up in the right direction for your forward crossline hip slide. You help had put another piece of the puzzle in place, which I think is an important step forward for me. Thank you so much for repeatedly pointing me in the right direction and backing up your points with educational quotations from "HK's good book".

No problem boss . . . it's ALL in that book! Just sometimes hard to find.

You are right too . . . you must put yourself in a position at the top comply with your delivery line and lag loading procedure.

You're gettin' it!

OK Dawg . . . This ain't as difficult as it seems at first pass.

All the Angle of Approach is is a line that connects the Point of Impact and the Low Point. All the Arc of Approach is is an ARC that connects the same two points.

Now both of these (the curved line and the straight line) are ON THE PLANE. The Angle of Approach (the Line) extends out to right field. However the Arc of Approach curves back IN after reaching Low Point . . . as a result the procedures are different. The Arc of Approach ain't for the Hitter.

You can actually approximate the Angle of Approach a couple of ways.

1. Go to Fix and get your Right Forearm On-Plane. Imagine a line on the ground running parallel to your on-plane right forearm. There is the approximation of the Angle of Approach Delivery Line.

2. Low Point is opposite your left shoulder. You can determine your impact point at Fix. Now just imagine a line connecting the dots.

HOWEVER . . . Homer Kelley said that the Hitter utilizing the Angle of Approach procedure didn't have to be precise. He found in his experiments and observation that you could have different amounts of "out to right field" and achieve the same result. So you pick how much out to right field works best for YOU and that is YOUR angle of approach.

From the player's vantage point I think Homer Kelley would say that to the player the clubhead will ALWAYS appear to pass out side the Line of Flight (or target line). The flight of the ball is in a VERTICAL plane and the golf club operates on an Inclined Plane . . . so anything positioned back of low point means that the inclined plane will be OUTSIDE of the flight of the ball.

Lay a plate on the table and take a look for yourself . . .

Thanks for clearing it up.... I made a typo when i said "arc of approach purely for hitter"... meant "angle". Depressed at moment... Australia kicking English butt on first day of Ashes...imagine a "world series" that truly involved intercontinental rivalry and you get close to the significance of the current cricket match between England and Australia...

What I was trying to say is that you achieve an "arc of approach" curved clubhead path by straight plane line tracing and vica versa...

Can one use either in hitting or swinging...? this is the bit i am unsure of...? I thought that someone somewhere said that Yoda's hitting looks so similar to his swinging ( and hence different to Teds hitting) because he hits with tracing a straight plane line...? and a square- square set up 10-5-A...

But Ted uses 10-5-E set up and "angle of approach" is purely hitting and ,as you say, precision is less important ...


"Right field" cricket equivalent = "mid off" :) I think...

Normally someone choose either hitting or swinging depending on their own set of unique golfing talents and what works best for them. Someone like Lynn Blake, for teaching purposes, needs to be fluent in both hitting and swinging. It would simply be too complicated for him to choose optimum forms of hitting and swinging in this case because too many parts would need to swapped out, every time he switched from one form to the other. So instead of optimizing one science or the other, Yoda chooses parts that work quite well for him regardless of whether he is hitting or swingiing. The only minor problem was that for me, duplicating his downswing waggle, I didn't get the crossline hip movement that I desired. But it is now fixed and all is well.

Most places where you learn golf teach you swinging, period. Here you get to figure out whether you are a hitter or a swinger and then go from there. A huge competitive advantage for the Golf Machine, I say.

...and a sustainable one I might add. :)

Voila
 

Thank you, thank you, Mr. Ted Fort for providing the blueprint for numerous swing improvements in this hitter's arsenal.

Managed a small BUCKET of balls with my new crossline swing. Definitely a dramatic improvement on what I was doing previously. I tried to think about why crossline felt and worked better for me. While 30 balls is certainly just a small sampling, here is my guess as to what is improved.

In swinging, the direction of the swing is set far earlier in the sequence, so the fact that one's hips are opening early is of small consequence. In hitting, the position of your hips at the point of contract matters more. So my theory is that the cross line hip swing provides insurance for hitters to prevent an early hip opening before the tricep takes over, causing one to hit the ball on the wrong line.

How did I do BUCKET?

I'd say you got it . . . all components must adhere to the selected delivery line . . . and if you select the cross-line angle of approach as your delivery line . . . then you certainly don't want your hips "opening" too quickly I'd say because you'd end up bending your plane line left.

I'd say Ted would certainly be the expert in this here area . .. but in my humble opinion your thesis holds water.

I think you kinda just want to set things up so you can drive off your right shoulder as a back stop . . . like a shot putter. Homer Kelley said that the pivot is just the sack you put the components in.