hands in downswing?
 

i have a question regarding getting the hands in position on the downswing. i have a dvd called 'explosive golf' by a gsed guy mike jacobs i think. he says the hands are just like vice clamps that hold the club and the body core is what brings everything back to place. i thought i read here though that the hands still guide the downswing. also, if that is the case, where does pulling the left hand/arm come into play? what what am i missing? thanks

#-o This is the issue that still befuddles a good many golfer and instructor.

In Golfing Machine speak, letting the "body core" dictate what the hands do is called "Pivot Controlled Hands".

Letting the hands dictate to the pivot their assignments, that is called "Hand Controlled Pivot".

Which procedure is correct? Both are correct - it just depends on what result you desire. A procedure is correct for a particular instance if you are seeking the result that procedure produces.

Consider:

- A slice is correct if you need to bend one around trouble.
- A topped shot is correct if you need to scuttle one beneath bushes and cause it to run up near or onto the green.
- A bent left wrist is correct if one desires to execute a true lob shot.

If your desire is to assign to Geometry precedence over Physics - which increases precision, then use your Hands to control the Pivot. e.g Monitor your hands while chopping a tree.

If your desire is to assign to Physics precedence over Geometry and hence let Force dictate alignments - which reduces precision, then use your Pivot to control the Hands. e.g. Monitor your body while chopping a tree.

Motion is Geometry and Action is Physics.

Which produces more distance?
That I believe is the million dollar question. :wink:

Landshark,

I'm sure that Mike's intent, given that his DVD is only about Swinging, was to prevent viewer from applying right arm thrust.

Cheers

i'm sure you're right about that, but in watching the jeff hull segments, i get the impression he leads and uses his hands more, even though he's a swinger. i'm just confused whether one is better or the more consistent and easier way.

Basically the left arm and clubshaft form what is called the "primary lever assembly". It is a law of the universe that to move something you have to create a pressure against it. In golf there is only two points which can move the primary lever assembly - pp4 and pp1.

For swingers - where the left arm is against the chest, you create a pressure to drive the entire primary lever assembly into impact. At the same time, the rotated lag pressure point is thrusted towards the ball or along the plane line at an aiming point.

Thats really the way it works...

The hands are always aiming whilst the pivot drives the left arm and club....

I assume you play basketball...

Take a bball and try a 3-pointer shot by:

1. Focusing on your calves, thighs, shoulders - how much force they need to exert to pop the ball into the net. As for the hands, let the chips fall where they may.

2. Aiming with your hands.

Take 10 shots with each procedure and see the stats.

Basketball & Golf
 

I'm not sure Comdpa exactly what side of the fence your on with this, but I like your basketball analogy. I'm not a basketball stud, but I did work on my shot last year quite a bit as both of my sons were playing on city leagues & made for some great father/son bonding!

I know there is is no way I can hit 3's without using my legs & feet. I watch some of the guys in the NBA do it with just upper body, but these guys are huge compare to my whopping 155#'s (wet:laughing9 !!) A lot of those NBA guys shooting 3's still use the lower body.

So as this relates to golf, is you must use the lower body to hit powerful golf shots. You don't have to do, it...we dont in basic motion, and most dont in acquired motion, but in total motion powerful shots....my computer has finally (after 2 months of incubating on this) told me the lower body has to do several things to allow my arms, hands etc. to move thru the ball correctly.

I have to agree with Mathew...about the lag pressure & the primary lever...

I personally take the clug away with the hands, back with the hands, up with the hands...all the way to the top and then SLIDE the hips....as I drag load...then I rotate the hips as I swing the left arms firing #4, #2, & #3 accumulators down the base of the plane line. So, in my mind, I see this as hands controlled pivot, even though my hands didn't move my pivot on the downswing, as it did on the backswing. However, if I don't slide and rotate, I can't clear the right hip, I will round house, or run out of right arm which makes me hit it fat or flip the club face....and LEFT of my target!

I'm still new to TGM so if I've butchered this stuff guys (Mathew, Compda, Yoda & gang) let me know...but my ball striking has improved so much, I feel like I'm a professional witha 15 handicap! :laughing9

ok. i'm starting to get it to a degree. without all the tgm wording, etc, i should let the body do its thing as pretty much described, but give a place or location for it to go with using the hands. am i getting the jist of it?

Bullseye!
 

landshark,

You pretty much got it.

Put your focus on the hands and whatever the body does, let it do.

In the golf swing, all we want to do is to take the hands up the plane to the Top and then back down the plane through to the Finish.

Impact is not a station or location to aim for as it is incidental to the swing.

A caveat however. For some of us, the body will disrupt this up and down path the hands must take, but that is another topic altogether...

thanks for the confidence. one more quick question: direction generally is good but misses tend to be thinned shots if anything. i have a feeling that i tend to go more forward in the swing rather than going more 'down'. is there an easy solution?

Got it!
 

I believe you got it, but I also believe that most average golfers and hackers don't properly use their lower bodies. When they use it, if they do, its also at the wrong time for many players. As in my case, I would use the hip action as merely a reaction from my hands and arms...trying to follow the hands controlled pivot approach. I tell you, this will cause problems if you don't clear the right hip. So now, I have had to add onto my machine, by a hip slide move and hip turn as I drag load.

After looking back at your initial post, I believe that to answer your question, the pulling from the left start at the very top (drag loading)10-19-C. "It is an out an out PULL..."
Also, according to Homer, one must develope an istant hip acceleration hip action to help create the throw-out action and set up the rhythm. I hope this helps.

Trane...

You misunderstood my analogy...lets try again.

If you were to do a jumpshot, do you focus on where your hands are aiming or what the body is doing?

If aiming with the hands: Its as simple as tossing a can into the trash bin. The eyes feedback to brain and hands toss - whatever other muscles need to be used to accomplish this task gets used.

If focusing on the body: You have to identify what bodyparts are going to be utilised in the jumpshot.

The quadriceps, calves, shoulders, triceps - figure out the force you need to generate with these muscles for the distance you desire to throw the ball - whatever the hands are doing, well, let them do what all that body motion makes them do.

This analogy has nothing to do with power - that is another topic - if you want to delve into it, just give a shout.

Thanks!
 

Well to me, when I shoot a jump shot, I think of keeping my righht forearm vertical, my right hand fully spread out, bend down into the ground and fire....fire for me is jump from my chest to my legs, then my toes and then my arms, hands, and then fingers for a nice smooth roll and follow-thru.

My aiming point is either the front or back of the rim or the glass.

The more I think about it, the jump shot starts with the ball arm power package assemble going downward, then it loads the lag and fires the hand into their spot where they can release.

Thats hands controlled pivot, right? Thats what we do in golf in this same method...let the hands take the body where it needs to be. Your right about the power thing, I was trying to relate it to me. I can develope centrifugal force as my hips lead going down, but when it doesn't lead, even though I'm swinging, my right arms wants to hit!

Ooopss!!
 

I also wanted to say, when my right arm hits in my swing method...I lose power....LAW of the flail, but when I can must up centrifugal force and keep each component lagging where I can apply pressure to each component, then my shot have much more sizzle!!!! And it feels so nice!!!:happy3:

Procedural Ease
 

Thats right Trane,

We are talking about Procedural Ease to sink the shot and not power sources in this topic.

As to diagnose whether you are hitting or swinging - without the aid of a video clip - can you answer the following questions? This is the triage! :laughing1

================================================== ================================================== ====
Are you flexible, meaning can you get your hands on plane to above your right shoulder at the Top?

Do you think you are fast like say a speedboat or powerful like a tugboat?

Would you describe your stroke as more 'around' as opposed to more 'up and down'?

As you are reaching impact, do you feel as if you are cracking a whip or driving a spike into the ground?

Do you just let 'it' happen and hold on or are you consciously driving 'something' into the ground?

In the backstroke, do you feel like you are carrying a rock back or whirling a bucket of water back?

As long as the hands control by designing the pivot, it is a hands are in charge. The pivot works for the hands to do ONE thing- deliever the hands so the clubhead Impacts the ball.

It is a pivot control hands if the pivot is merely jerking the hands without a specific swing path- no esstentials.

Hands are clamps with pressure points that monitor what the clubhead and clubface are doing or rather" IS" doing.

Compda
 

Looking at your hitting/swinging questions, I would have to say I swing. My swing has come a long way in a very short amount of time. And BTW that is from studying this wonderful website, posting, studying the yellow book, and spending lots of time on the driving range.

I let my ball flight, divots, clubface mark, watching the spin of the ball when it lands tell me how I'm doing. I use dowells, a flashlight tool that I built with 2 mini mag lights and schedule 20 PVC piping where I have the lights on both ends to help check my plane. I look, look, look at my mirrors in the house so much my wife thinks "he's so vain....he probably think this golfswings about him...he's so vain":eyes:

I am constantly working on something so I can get into my impact alignments and continue down the base of the plane line. I work on the finish swivel.

The mind, at least mine, can't work on all of this at once, but over the last 2 months I really like my progress. Maybe, if I had an AI looking at my swing I could have avoided some of the deadends or redirect my energies more efficiently. However, I believe this approach has really helped me understand more. I believe TGM is the best out there and it amazes me everyday how Homer came up with this stuff using, laws, geometry, and physics and covered so much other very small exact components that can mean so much!!

So, Compda, I feel I do swing. However, like I have mentioned if I don't clear my right hip, if I my power package is going around my body and my hips stop moving, & if I run out of right arm, I can't swing effectively in terms of sending the ball where I am trying to send it. If my hips stop moving and are simply a reaction, then I can't create the lag pressure on the #4 pressure point and I lose an entire accumulator. Now I will have only #2 & #3. I want a 3 barrell (#4, #2, & #3).

The problems are loss of distance from slightly fat shots, flips to the left, bent plane lines, and even slices. So for today, I am going to work on my right hip movement at the very top at the range today.

Sorry for the long post, but I look forward to yall's responses to my interpretation of TGM and my approach.

Trane,

Without video evidence and based on what you have said thus far, it seems to me you are on the right track...

There is an AI based in Texas by the name of Chuck Cook (GSED). Next door to you in Arizona, there are 2 by the names of Denny Alberts (GSEB) and Greg Smith (GSEM).

I have had the pleasure of meeting and talking to the last two gentlemen and recommend their expertise with no reservations.
Please PM me should you need their contact details.

Hands-controlled-pivot
 

The club can also be pulled by both hands with a straight leading arm and a folded trailing one acuated by a rotating shoulders.

Pull against the "lag" with both hands.