running out of right arm
 

Ok this is a chronic problem for me.

How do I learn to get my shoulder down plane and start swivelling properly? Drills? Swingthoughts? What can I do to learn this?

I have only a vague notion what it should look like.

Two Part Remedy
 

solarbear...

There are two parts to getting rid of this chronic problem.

1) Do your darndest best to hit pitch shots about 30 degrees to the right of your target. In other words, hit push shots while you are set up to hit the ball straight.

2) When #1 can be accomplished with a fair bit of consistency, learn to swivel or roll the left forearm in conjunction with #1 until dead straight or draw shots are achieved. :)

Running out of right arm
 

So your right shoulder is moving off plane too soon? "roundhousing"?

Is the swiveling you're talking about - a release swivel or a finish swivel?

When you say you have a vague notion of what it should look like- Could you describe what you are doing now that you know is not correct?

It's best to have a link to a video of your swing.

No my shoulder is not roundhousing. Basically, I go to a short backswing then return to almost exactly the same position I started from, then do some sort of funky sweep release. The club is only driving through the ball about 5 or 6 inches, before it runs out of arm and spins up on the other side.

My Vague Notion - Basically, what I think should happen is the clubhead should drive down and though the ball like a sidways axe. Arms push out till they are fully extended.

I reckon my arms are not extending all the way because of A,B,C - A) my shoulder is not travelling downplane before the hands B) shoulder is not travelling downplane far enough C) not swivelling the forearm properly.

I would really like to learn how to do this part of the motion properly, but I am not 100% sure what to practice to achieve it.

Flipping
 

Couple of thoughts/guesses (we are working on limited information here- so I could be way off)

Sounds to me like you are describing "flipping"- i.e. flattening the right wrist- bending the left wrist.

I wouldn't really visualize your motion as running out of right arm- after all you never get the right arm fully extended at any point in the swing.

When you flip it - the right arm doesn't fully extend- and you don't properly swivel after the follow-through. Personally, I would see the swivel or lack there of as an effect of what came before it and not something to directly work on- although sometimes walking through it in slow motion isn't bad just to understand the proper motion.

Quick thoughts on a cure:
1) without a ball and without a club - just take the right forearm back and through until you've reached the follow-through position of the right arm straight AND in this drill make sure the right wrist is still COMPLETELY bent. So you should be feeling that your right wrist is bending more and more as you get closer to the follow-through location of the right arm straight- because you have been flattening it out before but not feeling as if it is flattening.
2) While you are doing #1- and pretending to hit a ball- you need to make sure that a) you are hitting slightly down on the ball and b) that downward effort is continued all the way until you have arrived at the follow-through location of the right arm straight and the right wrist bent.
3) This motion should really be just a chip shot motion/length 12-5-1. Important to visually check everyone of these motions at the follow-through location without the ball and club and also when you've added the ball and club. Did you achieve what you wanted? Did you hold it and check it every time? Or did you pay attention to the ball flight or lack there of and not check it? Make sure that when you get to the follow-through location - that you have "run out of energy"- since that is your finish location on a chip - you SHOULD be finished.
4) Maybe kick it up on a punch shot (that low shot under the tree) with more power at some point and then you'll transition from that motion to the swivel- but then the swivel will work properly as you've set it up to work.

Sounds to me like you game must be in the 90's - high eighty's at best. I would guess that it is your hands that are the problem- not the right shoulder (body), not the location of the right shoulder (body), and not the lack of a swivel- the lack of a swivel just tells you that you did something wrong earlier in the movement- flipping.

That said - unless you've got a really grooved pattern- you currently get some thin shots, fat shots, etc. - thats' the flipping (maybe some shanks also)

No.

After initially terrible instruction, I have been rebuilding my swing from the ground up. I have been doing basic and small acquired motion for months and months to get rid of the flip, head movement and OTT move. After months of working on these things, they seem to be gone. So I am quite happy with that. Its time to move on and fix the next part of my swing.

Basically, my pattern is address (using an impact fix), backswing then back to almost the exact same position in address. Because the shoulder has not driven down, there is only 5 or so inches of thrust available. After that it sweeps around.

Have to watched Ted Fort's down swing waggle on the Lynn Blake/Ted Fort/Jeff Hull video? That is what you should be using as the next swing building block. Ted tries to do this move slowly to allow adequate time for the hips to move forward in a crossline path. The body reacts to the hip movement by causing the right shoulder to drop. This is not an arm movement. That is probably what is creating the problem. The arm movement needs to be saved for later. In order not to run out of arm later, you must let the body movement drive the right shoulder lower and delay the arm movement until after the right shoulder drops.

For the philosophy behind this solution, watch Yoda in the in the acquired motion chapter of the original Jeff Hull video (toward the end). But in my view, if you want best results, then concentrate on Ted Fort's Chapter two of the Lynn Blake/Ted Fort/Jeff Hull video. Practice the downswing waggle until you have it. It should be next component to be developed in your swing imo.

This sounds like its on the right track.

The only thing is I don't get this section of the video at all. The explanation of whats involved with the hitters waggle is a bit vague. I have been practicing something that looks similar and its improved my hip bump, but some part of the action is missing.

Whats involved with a correct hitters waggle?

edit: Was rewatching and playing around with the motion a bit - best I could determine is that your hip bumps and your shoulder turns slightly downplane, while your arms stay roughly in the same spot. Is this right? The pressure build up in the right arm is tremendous. From there I am guessing you thrust down pushing off of your right shoulder. Please let me know if I have missed something.

How can you practice it so you know you are doing it right? How can you get this slowness that Ted talks about?

What you describe there is pretty much my chipping and pitching practice. Which I do 4-5 nights a week. And pretty much how I stopped flipping. As a result my chipping and pitching has become pretty good.

No I am not very good at golf yet. But hope to get good enough to enjoy it more.

90% of my bad shots are a result of poor pivot... don't bump hip and bad shot ensues. I have worked on this for months and still screw up a couple times a round. My other bad shots tend to be just short, didn't drive through the ball cleanly and ball goes a bit left or right due to poor clubface control. I went through phases of what you describe, before devoting most of my practice time to chipping and pitching.

Ted Fort says:

1) He feels like its a motion in which the right shoulder and the right elbow are getting closer to the ball. Or getting into a position in which I they can throw a punch.

2) If I don't have any hip slide and my right shoulder and right elbow don't get closer to the ball, I run out of right arm.

The hip slide is the primary move. The right shoulder and right elbow shift lower as a by product of the hip slide. You should practice the waggle making sure to focus on the crossline hip slide. Monitor the right shoulder and right elbow to make sure the hip slide causes them to respond properly. Your hip slide motion is working properly, if your shoulder drops and your elbow loads correctly, and if it is slow enough. The punishment for driving to the ball from too far away is that will indeed run out of right arm. The hip slide needs to be slow enough so that the corresponding shoulder and elbow responses have time to take effect. Then and only then, it will be "punching" time.

Ok. This is an interesting drill. Your going to think I am dumb with this question though.

Do you try and hit it 30* right by changing the angle of attack? Or by holding the clubface open? The first would make more sense to me as it would be teaching the hitters angle of attack. But I could see some value in the other as it would teach you to feel various clubface manipulations.

You do this by changing the angle of attack. This is a good drill to prevent 'steering' Its otherwise known as the 'Cut Shot' Therapy where you set up with a Square-Square stance and the proceed to hit the ball 30* right. By doing this drill you will also learn to hit the ball on the inside aft quadrant and learn the down and out motion that is needed for solid compression.
Alex

Clarification and Ramification
 

This is not a dumb question.

For clarification of Angle of Attack and Angle of Approach, please see attached diagrams below. Diagrams are courtesy of Rob Noel,GSEM.

The whole point of doing the drill prescribed is to exaggerate the inside out path that the clubhead and hands take. This is done by changing the Angle of Approach and not the Angle of Attack.

In TGM, such a drill is called an Inside-Out Cut Shot per 3-F-7-A and is usually done with a Vertical Hinge or as you have termed 'holding the clubface open'.

As with all geometrically correct downstrokes, make sure that you still hit D-O-W-N.

It also teaches the Hitters' "Angle of Approach" not "Angle of Attack" as you have posted.

The "ramification" of executing the first part of the drill is that your right shoulder will be forced downplane in order to put the hands and clubhead on the correct 'inside' route. The vertical hinge will ensure that the ball goes off on an angle to your target line.

Didn't realize there were 2 different terms. I think I meant angle of approach... Basically the angle a hitter would swing out at.

That is how I was doing the drill. Made small pitches more interesting.

Thanks for your help.

Don, you know you are trespassing into the dark side...:naughty: :laughing9

I thought hitting was the dark side.

I think this is a geat thread for hitters. One of the problems I had when starting to hit was the idea that you use the shoulder to push the right arm off of. In order to accomplish this I would hold the right shoulder back, sometimes even drop under plane and just try to drive to a both arm straight position. When doing this I would run out of right arm and flip the club into impact causing massive hooks.

For me to correct the problem I consciously think or swinging"hitting in my case" on the shoulder plane. My shoulder is driving downplane while at the same time slamming a bent right wrist into impact. If you're on plane, proper finish swivel should occur with no additional effort.

I am having a terrible time with this. When I work on getting the shoulder downplane I start hitting it fat. :S

My first instinct is flipping. Always flipping. But much playing around, I don't think this is the case.

I can't find the right shoulder downplane angle or something else. It could be some sort of incorrect movement by the RFW. Whatever the problem, I can't sort it out ATM.

Two things that helped me, very recently due to a visit to the swamp with Ted.

1. Slow Start down. May not work for everyone, but I try to get the right shoulder back to where it was at setup before really driving my arms. It's a timing thing that just requires practice.

2. Also for me it's critical that I feel like the club is pulling me through impact instead of my hips running off and pulling the club through impact. A swingers hip action with a hitters motion has got trouble written all over it.

Thanks for that. Gives me some things to look at. Been working on that start down move and making it slow.

Where can I find some info on hitters hip movement?

I was experimenting and found that the root of my evil might be the right wedge thrusting too soon. Pulling away from the body. I had some good success just trying to brush my belly with my elbow and I swung the RFW through the ball.

i think a hitter should be slightly more away from the ball at setup to give him some more room between he and ball. Don, you might be crowding the ball a bit. Also, at setup, i suggest dropping the right shoulder a bit more than you do now, kinda shoving it slightly down and towards ball as well. Get that?

just my thoughts.

Solarbear - based on some of the answers in your posts, it sounds to me like you may have a setup problem. How is your shoulder alignment? I'd guess you may have them setup more open than square and/or you have a right forearm that is too high at address (which can be open shoulders and/or a bad right hand grip).

I dunno.

I would suspect my grip is ok.

Not sure how to respond to the shoulder query or the right forearm too high as I not too sure what would be considered high. From where I am looking shoulders look square, but I could be wrong.

something I noticed this weekend regarding running out of right arm. Make sure you are not sliding the hips on the backswing. I actually keep the right side of my foot slightly off the ground to make sure I turn and don't slide. If you slide to the right, you've effectively taken yourself further from the ball and it can be difficult to get back. Just a thought..

The hip action is slide-turn in the backstroke.... it is very crutial that you do this....

Just maintain the stationary head and keep the balance inside the feet as you do this....

There seems to be alot of contrasting info on the Hitters hip action.

Perhaps someone really knowledgable can explain it simply for all us newbies.

I would just like to have it spelled out for me, really clearly and in good detail. I keep reading things that just do not match up. Or maybe I misread them, because the language is not clear.

And everytime I tinker with my hips based on what I have read somewhere, I screw it up. Last time I tinkered with my hips I hit 2 weeks of fat shots, till my pinky knuckle turned purple and swelled up beyond belief. Finally, using a broomstick and wailing on the ground with it for about 2h, I worked out that it was the hip action causing all the fat shots and not a hand action.

Hard to sound like a warrior when the pinky is the culprit. I still feel your pain.

Uhhhh . . . Nah . . . Toooooooo EASY!!!

As humourous as it is for a 200+ lb guy to be complaining about a pinky but the hand was so sore that when I rolled over on it in bed it would wake me up like someone had hit me with a hammer.