Can you Hit but still feel CF in the clubhead?
 

Last summer, I went to the dark side and experimented hitting :evilpumpkin: .

I did a few basic and acquired motion sessions to get the feel of it then took what I did on the course for a few weeks.
Amazing results:

• I shot my best score ever at 2 over par :eyes: ! (I'm 13hcp!),
• Accuracy was like a laser, especially in the short game area,
• Distance control in chipping/pitching was very reliable

and most pleasing, I experienced a huge improvement in distance (I remember also hitting my longest drives ever :-D).

But I was confused by what I felt and what I knew about hitting and thought I was wrong (despite the results!) and went back to swinging but never found the same magic and repeatability hitting has provided to me.

So now I'll give it another try but need some help to clear the fog:

Let me explain what I did last summer and what confused me:

1. Address at impact fix "ala Yoda's Luke"
2. Take the left arm flying wedge back in one piece (feeling no roll/swivel), using my right arm until my left arm goes across my chest.
3. 2-M-4 - Body Power: A violent but starting gently (!) Pivot Thrust to load the power package (a strong pressure is then felt into PP#4) then blast the left arm flying wedge out of my chest without doing anything at this moment with the right arm (very important!)
4. Only and only when the power package starts to blow of my chest (the feeling of PP#4 decreasing) I activate my right arm to supply additional power and drive everything down to the ground.
5. All this produced a no-roll feel with angled hinge.

What confused me here is that when you use the blast of the left arm of your chest using 2-M-4 you FEEL the clubhead accelerating and you feel centrifugal force.
At that time I thought I was mixing because I was feeling CF!!!

But now, I think I misconfused the effect for the cause:

• Cause of the swinging power: Centrifugal force.
• Cause of the hitting power: Muscular force (not necessarily the right arm only, right?)

Effects for both: The clubhead accelerating in a circular motion. From then, physics dictates that there is CF in the clubhead!

Is it normal to feel that while hitting or am I missing something?
Can anyone confirm that?

4 barrel
 

What you describe sounds just like 4 barrel hitting to me. You wont be a 13 handicap for long is my guess.........if you can putt too

Hitters drive (push) the entire club- shaft and clubhead through the ball. There is no whirl- no arc of approach but an ANGLE of approach.

"Cause" and "Effect"
 

The "intent of Hitting" is the "Cause" and the "Feel" is the "Effect".

You either feel what you intend to do and feel or don't feel.

From 3 barrel to 4 barrel
 

Yes Thom, it makes sense now you’ve said it:
During the last year, I learned to feel clubhead lag using pressure points in the hands and tracing:
I improved my ball contact and consistency a lot (better compression, divots well after the ball...).

But as my focus was mainly to educate my hands, I paid little attention to the pivot.

Boy! I understand why Homer said the pivot is the Master Accumulator (6-B-4-0):

I have always been a long hitter, and very few people can overdrive me, but putting the emphasis on the pivot provided even much more power (awesome!) and a lot of comfort (a bit less effort)!!!

By consciously adding the #4 accumulator into play (full strokes) everything fell in place: I distinctly felt the Checkrein action (pivot, shoulder, arms, club...) and every ounce of power I can generate was applied to the ball with the clubhead weighting a ton :thumright!

Luke, do you feel the (Centrifugal) Force?
 

Agreed 6bmike, this is exactly what I "see": the angle of approach line crossing the target line and going to right field... and it's working well.

Now, quoting 2-M-4: "...consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger's essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact, or as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter's loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed",
don't you think that, even if the Hitter doesn't whirl the clubhead, he feels the clubhead accelerating and feels CF as an incidence of the motion just created???

It's not me, it's physics: I think that hitting or swinging (different sources of power), the clubhead moves in an orbit around the shoulder hinge. And everything orbiting has Centrifugal Force.

Thus, we should feel that resulting CF while hitting, right?!

It would be nice if an accomplished 4 barrel hitter like TED could describe if he feels that (Luke, do you feel the (Centrifugal) Force? :) ).

Not physics- geometry. the clubhead still moves in a circle except the whole radius of the club is pushed. The clubhead is not whirled. Like beating a carpet on a clothes line instead of whirling a rock on a string. CF needs greater throw-out- a quick move from the start. A hitter plots his course. There is no CF in lower throw-out speeds. Muscle power only. A batering ram instead of a catapolt. CF is uncontrolable- you give up control to the forces of Newton. Hitters maintain control and push/drive the club to low point. Swingers live on the edge of throw-away. Their only control is propr mechanics of the gryo- right shoulder thrust.

so...
 

ExtensorMike - if he feels CF while hitting, he's actually right arm svinging??:eyes:

..or will it be possible to feel CF from the top to release, and then confound drive out lag pressure with CF lag pressure into impact??

Yodeli is saying that he feels CF while hitting, does anyone have an explanation/TGM interpretation?

Yodasluke ?
 

I think that Yodasluke has written in differents threads that he is a four barrels hitter, and start the downswing with a "swinger feeling" in PP#4.
Start like a swinger and then push like a hitter ?

Feel like a swinger startdown then push like a hitter
 

Exactly my feeling!

PP4 blasts of my left arm from my chest - it feels like a swinger startdown - BUT as soon as ACC#4 releases, I "catch the momentum" and add more power to the motion by strongly drive the whole unit (arm+club) down and out to the ground.
The power produced by this procedure is amazing and I think it explains why Ted drasticaly increased the lenght of his shots!

I certify that my clubface is producing angled hinging with the distinctive no-roll feel.

I could also SWING using the same startdown (using PP4 to blast the left arm of the chest) but I will whirl the clubhead to impact instead of driving it.
The result is a distinctive horizontal hinging with a full-roll feel.

So to summup things:

• For me, Hitting or Swinging, the blast of the left arm from the chest using PP4 is the same - So are the feelings AT THIS MOMENT of the swing.
• Then ONLY at ACC#4 release, the different feels between hitting and swinging happen.

No he isn't right arm swinging. I don't open that can. No CF at the top- CF is a throw-out of the clubhead. You can start down like a swinger but that isn't CF. A hitters push will slow down a clubhead released by CF. Like wise a swinger can't 'push the club' after releasing it via CF.

Blur drive out lag pressure with CF into impact
 

This swinger feeling in PP4 while attempting to hit confused me a lot and I thought I was mixing.
Then, recently I read 2-M-4:
Homer says that "[Pivot Thrust is] supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter's loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed".

In this chapter, Homer doesn't say that the pivot is doing something different, Hitting or Swinging.
He just says that Pivot Thrust (one Action, Hitting or Swinging) is accelerating the loaded power package (the result of the Action when Hitting) or blasts the inert left arm (the result of the Action when Swinging).

Thom,
I think you put the finger on something:

1. Imagine your left arm and clubshaft as one straight and stiff unit attached to your left shoulder (my thought at impact fix).
2. Then, pick up the whole unit accross your chest using a hitter's takeaway.
3. Then, load ACC#4 and feel PP4 by turning your body to the target.
4. The left arm flying wedge (the "whole stiff unit") will follow and will be blast of the chest somewhere halfway down when ACC#4 starts to release.
5. Then ADD more power by driving the whole unit using right arm thrust.

You will agree that that way of considering the left arm+club as one unit is clearly not a swinging procedure!
However if you think of what is happening in step 4 above, the "whole stiff unit" initially accelerated by the pivot could kinda fell like CF until you activate the thrust of the right arm!!!

I would love to have Ted's opinion on that!!! ;)

I am interested in Yodeli's commentary that a pivot action is necessary prior to hitting with the right arm (triceps activation actively extending the right elbow). I can envisage the downswing pivot action throwing the left arm off the chest wall with a very assertive (very active) right shoulder thrust maneuver, and I can also envisage a more gentle right shoulder thrust maneuver that simply moves the power package assembly downplane, and into a mid-downswing position where the right arm can start to actively power the downswing via a hitting action. Which of these two options is recommended for a hitter?

Jeff.

Now I'm lost. Was there doubt that a Hitter had no pivot? Certainly a hitter has a hip action and turn.

Second- CF is a throw-out. You can not feel CF because it is a clubface motion. The clubface seeks an inline condition, not the golfer's body

Check out the video I posted called "Hitters Row." Ted is hitting in the background and Lynn is swinging in the foreground. Check out the pivots.

Yes, in my eye the pivot action at the start of the downstroke is the same: it loads the power package and starts the checkrein action for both strokes…

6bmike,
I think Jeff among others have an incomplete picture on how to perform a complete hitting stroke. At last I was!

Why so? I think it relates to what we saw on videos: When Lynn describes the Hitting stroke, he puts a lot of emphasis on the right arm thrust as THE power source for Hitters and talk very little about the role of the pivot as an equally important source of power for the Hitter.

You are lucky enough to be close to the green man, so you have no fog in your mind, be for the fellow TGMers far away and only relying on the videos, this could be half the story we need to know about Hitting.

To me, there is a lack of information about chapter 2-M-4 related to the Hitting stroke on the videos: As a result, I pictured Hitting in my mind more of a 1-2-3 release of the accumulators (requiring to have the right arm of Mike Tyson!) with the body following the motion some way, instead of the proper 4-1-2-3 much more powerful release (and requiring a normal right arm!).

Sure, but imagine that while performing a Hitting stroke, the clubhead detaches from the shaft halfway down in the downstroke (as if your club broke!).
Because the clubhead is moving in an arc (hitting or swinging!), you can be sure it is subject to CF and that the clubhead will go away in the tangent of the arc of the swing where it broke! For sure it will not spear the aiming point!

This is this kind of CF I am talking about.

I think that if you are Hitting, using a proper angled hinge action (and even with only ACC#1 power!) you can feel this resulting CF in the clubhead because physics dictates there is some!!!

I just discovered that using a lot of lag pressure in PP4 makes me more aware of this RESULTING CF occurring while Hitting…and I thought it was wrong :doh:!

I agree that I would have been wrong if I thought about Hitting and using CF instead of right arm thrust to provide power but I think we are not talking about the same CF here: One is propelling the clubhead (Swinging) while the other is a inevitable result of the angular motion and must not been regarded as wrong while hitting!

Jeff,
As I remember doing it some months ago, I think the two options you describe are both valid:
The first one being used on full shots and the other one (the gentle right shoulder thrust) for pitches and chips.
The feel and action stay the same (I remember it very clearly!) and you just are just varying the lag pressure in PP4 (0% (small chips - no pivot) to 100% (a 350 yards drive! :happy3: )) to accomodate for the shot at hand.
But it is still an action of the pivot THEN the action of the right arm WHEN you feel ACC#4 starting to release.

Mike

Thanks for your input. I obviously didn't understand how the hitter starts the hitting action when I posted that question. I have now found a video by LB in his section of the video gallery, which was produced in 2004. In that video, he states that the hip only moves to take up slack, and that the right shoulder is kept back and not thrust downplane, and that the right arm is actively thrust in a straight line towards the ball away from the right shoulder. I now understand the hitting action somewhat better. However, I still would like to better understand what activates power accumulator number 4 in a hitting action. In a swinging action, I imagine that the right shoulder thrust causes upper torso rotation therefore ensuring increased lag pressure at PP4 in the initial downswing, which is eventually released when the downswing pivot action abates. What happens regarding loading and release at the PP4 point in a hitter?

By the way, where can I find your video called "hitters row"?

I also don't understand your comment that "one cannot feel CF because it is a clubface motion". I thought that CF was a clubhead motion, and not a clubface motion. I also thought that a swinger should still feel lag pressure at PP3 during the CF action to avoid clubhead throwaway.

Jeff.

Yodeli

Your description fits my previous understanding of hitting. However, after watching the LB hitting/swinging video in his video gallery, I am now led to understand that there is no pivot action (right shoulder downplane thrust) - neither gentle or assertive - in a hitters action.

Jeff.

Right shoulder drives down the plane
 

Mmm...
in the video (at 00:55') Lynn says that for a Hitter, the right shoulder must not drop down (ie underplane) [EDITED, was "downplane"] but drive down the shoulder plane. It doesn't mean the shoulder must stay back or that there is no pivot action! :naughty:

The shoulder is free to move if it moves down the shoulder plane!
Then the right arm thrusts against the right shoulder.

In fact, if you don't move your shoulder down plane (using the pivot I guess!), you will certainly run out of right arm and will be forced to throw away!

Words At Work
 

Did I say downplane or underplane?

:)

clubface- my bad, meant to type clubHEAD. Do a search using Hitter's Row- the link should show in a reply and you get to read other commnets in the thread. Might be in the Lynn Blake Reality TV section of the vids.

Corrected!
 

Argh, my fault Green man!
I wrote with my brain disconnected at that time :redface:.
I meant of course down under the plane:

The right shoulder must not drop down under the shoulder plane but must drive down the shoulder plane!

What a hawkeye Lynn! I corrected the post!

By the way, thanks again for all the valuable instruction you provide here; with your help my game improved a lot since my first post and I can tell you my ball now knows what lag and compression mean! :thumright

Mike - I found your "hitters row" video. Thanks.

Yoda - I would appreciate a comment on the "correct" action of the right shoulder in a hitter's full swing. It is my understanding that the right shoulder must absorb reactively (in a Newtonian sense) the push action of the right arm/forearm against the PP1 point. However, as Yodeli states, any attempt to keep the right shoulder back will cause one to "run out of right arm" in the downswing. I therefore presume that the right shoulder must actively move downplane to support the right forearm in its hitting action. If correct, how does its movement differ from the right shoulder thrust movement that initiates/activates/supports a swinger's downswing pivot action?

Jeff.

I second Jeff
 

I second Jeff's in his question and I'm curious of the answer.

If you can also drop a line about that "Incident CF feel while hitting" I talked about, my mystery would be solved and I'd the happiest man in the world! ;)

Thanks in advance!