Questions that I need cleared up?
 

For the past year and a half I have struggled with pulls.

Here are the concepts I have been working on that seem to be helping.

1) Not letting my right shoulder go down and out as much as I felt in the past. I do a lot of start down waggles and feel my right shoulder go down just slightly. From there my arms swing past my body.

2) Try to keep the rotation of my body more passive.

3) Feeling the left wrist unlock more inside the plane line, which I believe keeps the clubhead more inside the plane line, but then I feel my clubhead travel more toward the plane. I still believe it is downward outward and forward.

4) Lastly, I feel that am getting to both arms straight alittle sooner. In the past I believe I kept my right elbow overly bent and left wrist too cocked and a bit arched, which caused some roundhousing.

I would really like to hear some thought on this.

Lastly, How soon do you feel your left wrist begin to uncock?


Nathan

Hit it straight?
 

Instead of hitting it from behind at the back (to hit it straight), try to hit the ball from the inside at the inside corner.

10th September 2006...time travel
 

"I Had an Amazing Practice today!!!! But I still have a quesetion.
Today on the range was the best practice I believe that I have ever had. I start with about 30 mins of basic and aquired motion, then I went into 8iron 6iron 2iron and driver, around 300 balls total. The sound and flight were so amazing. But I still have a question.

I was monitoring my right shoulder and how it loaded my PP#4. Then alittle later I was monitoring the place that my left shoulder was positioning its self as I came into impact. It felt like it was moving up and back some, and it felt like my right shoulder moving properly was causing this.

Just wanted to know if anyone else has had this feeling, or if this is dicussed somewhere in the greatest book ever?"

Nathan, do you remember writing this post? I happened to be reading it last night after doing a search of the right shoulder...you were on a roll back then...what happened? You should go back and read your own stuff...It was pretty inspirational!

Pulls = closed clubface...
right arm less bent / both arms straight too soon

sounds like you maybe flipping ...

and by not sending your right shoulder down ( which you currently say is helping)...well, maybe that is the problem.

Right shoulder not down enough = run out of right arm = clubface closed...etc

DO the 300 ball drill that you did in your old post - you won't have forgotten what to do! Good luck:golf:

Things change
 

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but you don't want to have an overly bent right arm at impact.

A right shoulder that moves to much down will create too much right arm, thus causing someone to round house to get to the ball.

Nathan

The right arm can straighten quicker, as long as the right wrist remains bent, this is more compatible with the "swingining left" concept

First thing to look at - the right forearm at impact fix. Is it too high, is the right wrist 'level'?

A few other potential causes:

clubface closed/left wrist arched at the top

shoulder alignment at address is open and/or right hand grip is too weak

Ball position too far forward

Body rotation is stopping - keep that pivot moving! (try setting your left foot open about 30 degrees at address)

Post some video if you can.

so.. do you mean swinging right should be .. arm straighten later.. and right wrist does it straigthens or remains bent?..

Nathan,
Interesting post - as items 1-4 that you are working on for not pulling the ball - would normally be items one would work on if they were trying not to push the ball. However, after envisioning your four items and how they might stop you from pulling the ball- my guess would be that all of them might tie in well with "standing up" from the top to impact i.e. losing your "waist bend". Just a wild guess on my part. However, if I were right then you've stopped the pulling by creating compensations that counter act the original unsolved issue (whatever that may be). If that were the case then you'd want to do the opposite of items number one through four and then find out what stops the pulls while you are doing those.

Since you don't have video- it's best that you figure out what to work on or what information that might be helpful for you, as it could be one of a million issues or combination of issues. And any particular post to help - could be way off base (including this one!)

Mike O

Consider the following two statements-:

1) Not letting my right shoulder go down and out as much as I felt in the past. I do a lot of start down waggles and feel my right shoulder go down just slightly. From there my arms swing past my body.

2) Try to keep the rotation of my body more passive.

I would have also thought that those two actions would predispose to pulling, rather than correct a pulling problem.

This represents my attempt at logical reasoning - correct me if I am wrong.

If one doesn't maintain right shoulder thrust downplane during the downswing, then one will run of out of right arm, and the momentum of the moving club will likely produce slight flipping through impact, which will close the clubface and predispose to pulling. By contrast, if one maintains right shoulder thrust donwplane, then one can more easily maintain a bent right elbow and bent right wrist as one nears impact. Then, the straightening right elbow (complete release of power accumulator #1) during the exact moment of first ball impact will keep the clubface slightly open as one aims towards the inside quadrant of the ball. That should prevent a pull, and produce a straight ball flight if the clubface is square at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation. The same logic applies to having a too-passive torso rotation in the late downswing. If the torso slows, the arms will whip past the slow-moving torso and produce flipping. By contrast, if one maintains an active torso rotation through impact, then it is more easy to drive all the power accumulators to a full release post-impact.

Here are two comparative photo sequences to illustrate my point.



In this Hogan photo-series, Hogan is turning his torso very well through the late downswing and followthrough and driving his arms to the both-arms-straight end-followthrough position by inducing a full release of all his power accumulators via the biomechanical mechanism of an excellent downswing pivot action.



In this photo-series of an elderly golfer who has a slow, and incomplete, torso rotation through the impact zone, his arms simply flip through the impact zone and he also has chicken-winging due to i) insufficiently forceful release of his power accumulators to a both-arms-straight position and ii) due to a lack of sufficient extensor action through impact.

Jeff.

Mikey . . . could be a face pull as a result of the standing up . . . standing up will lay the shaft down . . .but also disrupts #3 which will make the face rotate fast . . . could be the face wrapping around the ball.

Stankbutt

Thanks for the ideas
 

I am going to shoot some video and put it up this evening, I would love to hear some of your thoughts on what I might want to direct my attention towards.

Dear Stankbutt,
please explain in some detail the above quote - I'd like to understand that- and also how you see that impacts the clubface.
Thanks in advance.

In general- I agree.

Assuming you might want more details - and if I were to nitpick a little with a few of my thoughts. I wouldn't use the term thrust - as I would view it more of a right shoulder location- whether the shoulder has thrust or not- if it gets to a location in space where the right arm doesn't straighten beyond the impact requirements then it would be fine- if it does straighten more and the upper right arm adducts across the chest more than intended and you get more internal rotation of the humerus and also more than intended right forearm pronation causing the face to close- whether you have deceleration (throwaway) or not.

The other term that "I" wouldn't use myself as you did - is the term flipping- as that in my mind means the left wrist breaking down- i.e.. bending, which definitely would close the face but I'm invisioning these items as closing the face primarily and not really causing "flipping" that closes the face.

Those are just a couple of thoughts from my perspective- posted in the hope that they might give you some added value. In other words, their posted in the light of learning and not attacking. Assuming we're here to learn- I'm sure you'll use the information or ignore it as you see it's relevance or lack there of.

However, you'll notice that I don't treat 12 Piece Bucket with the same respect - as he is incapable of learning! His IQ is similar to that of a hot dog on a barbecue! I'm requesting Bagger to block 12 Piece from all further quotations of any of my posts- immediately!:eyes: Finally, you are way to kind- I think it's OK to have full disclosure and let the entire forum know that the 2nd swing sequence is in fact 12 Piece Bucket himself.

Thanks for the ideas
 

Ok I got some video, I will have it up in a bit.

Here is the video
 

I fight pulled shots, any help for you guys will be great.

Hopefully it will help the other guys out also.

Nathan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRpdpqUJ5Qk

I started a need thread in the emergency room swingers, so hopefully more people will provide input.

Dookyball . . .

Try it . . . get your club make a SLOW startdown . . . when your left arm starts moving towards parallel to the ground . . STAND UP out of your posture . . . your pelvis or hips or whatever go toward the plane line . . . like when you "help the goats over the fence" . . . watch what the shaft does . . . it "lays down" or "flattens out". . . and the butt of the club is raised up. From there you have to do something weird with your hands to get to the ball . . . like flip or have less #3 angle that you intended. . . with less #3 angle the face rotates FAST . . . if you stand up out of your posture early you probably will have a tendency to hit blocks, fast hooks and face pulls.

I couldn't really see the face in the full swings but on the down the line pitch shots it looks like you have the face a little bit "shut" . . . plenty of cats play with a shut face (Trevino/Boo) . . . You may want to check the video on your full shots to see if you are shut. Looks like your grip is a little turned too . . . not a bad thing. You are not coming over it. It looks like a face pull. So I'd say you need to have more "shaft lean" through the ball which will open the face . . . just make sure you keep the handle more down when you do it . . . if you come into the ball and raise the handle any amount of rolling is going to make the face rotate FAST. And with your grip even faster. I'd say you'd want to feel NO ROLLING until after the ball is gone. Feel karate chop much longer. A good way to learn to get the lean is to REALLY shut the face at address and then take your grip. To keep the ball from going left you HAVE TO lean the shaft forward to open the face otherwise you hook it off the planet. Then gradually bring the face back to square.

Take all that with a grain of salt because I couldn't tell if you were shut on the long stuff.

Center of Mass
 

Watched you video. Appears to me, from studying V.J. Troilo's
book, "The final missing piece", that center of mass of your body
is not getting inside to over your left leg where the pivot should
be. Seems that your weight is staying centered between your
feet. By moving the center of mass to the inside of the left foot
and the left shoulder even with or in front of the ball, Hogan more
or less insured that he could not take the ball to the left. Hogan
was on the left side before he started his downswing. The shift
and turn in the downswing certainly works, but must be done
with great precision.

Yes, but the more right you swing, the less the wrist bend

In my psycho mind:
If you "come out of a shot" - which to me means standing up on it- the ball flies off to the right. If you stand up- it's one way to slow down the rotation of everything or stop the face from close. When you increase the lie angle of the club more vertically the face points more right.

I got the shaft laying down or flattening part but "with less #3 angle the face rotates FAST"- doesn't make any sense to me but you may be looking at some context that I'm not seeing and could be right on - after all there are all of factors that are involved that we're both assuming or are not analyzing.

Now, if you just look at the #3 accumulator by itself- and have no #3 accumulator - and sitting on a chair and just rotate your arm/forearm - all that moves is the face- no clubhead movement- and if you have a large number three accumulator then that same forearm/arm rotation means more clubhead travel and a longer time for the clubhead and the clubface to make their rotations compared to a zero number three. In that example- I would see exactly what you are saying i.e. with no other variables in play. But in the golf swing if you stand up and your #3 accumulator is reduced- there are more things going on such as the pivot slowing it's rotation, etc. etc. etc. so the simple #3 accumulator excercise doesn't flow through to the golf swing.

Just my thoughts and assumptions based on my own personal experiences. Let me know if was right in understanding the context in which you see the smaller number three accumulator creating a face that closes more quickly.

Losing the forward bend, allows the shaft to "ride down" the upper arm and let it go to right field, likewise stay in the forward bend and the clubs delivery line shifts out to in...

Nathan,
When I look at a swing- I look for the area that is most out of line. What "I" see is that from halfway down to impact and beyond- you are coming over the top of the swing - hugely. As a result - what you see at times is both feet flat on the ground at impact- since you don't need much if any hip slide for clearing. With that- the right foot doesn't roll in- but you get up on the toe and it lifts up- kind of like an after thought.

By looking at the two swings 8:16 and 8:33 where you are aware of "uncocking" versus the two swing 9:07 and 0:25 where you focus on the hands forward etc. - it seems to me that by having that thought in 9:07 and 9:33 that it changes your entire swing including your backswing. To me the backswing is shorter on those two swings as opposed to the earlier ones. That changes the total dynamics of the motion and you pull the ball more.

Personally, I don't think that the uncocking is something that you should be concentrated on for a change and certainly not something you should be aware of when you are swinging a golf club without working on any particular thing in your swing- normal procedure.

If you were to decide to change the halfway down over the top move- with the right shoulder way out - as opposed to more back and down- it won't be easy uncovering the other changes that you'll need to incorporate to make the "new" move work efficiently. Issues like trying to keep you head still and the orientation of your eyes on the ball - could be a few of many reasons why you swing the way you do. Just realize that it is just not one change but finding what other changes you'll need to make in order to coordinate the better downswing won't be so easy. Here is one way that I would think of this- if you are coming way over the top of the ball halfway down AND still hitting a lot of straight shots and some slight pulls- then you have additional items in your swing that are "push" factors that are offsetting the "pull"move. So when you don't make the pull move coming down and make no additional changes in your swing- the ball should go way right i.e. block or push. From there you need to applaud yourself and then figure what other items are in your swing that have subconsciously or consciously been overcoming the pull swing fault.
One such area you might look to is when you pass impact and move towards the finish- from down the target line now - you will sometimes see the arms move quite vertical- that's one push move to over come the pull downswing. Not sure you are laid off at the top - but I'm guessing you are slightly- might take a look at that- some additional head or shoulder rotation should allow that or just a more inside takeaway with the hands- will create it.

Food for thought.

When I look at your swing, I think that you swing is so good (and of such a high caliber) that I wonder whether your propensity to pull some shots to a small degree may relate to a few minor points.

Here is a simple diagram.



The green curved line represents the path of the clubhead. The orange dotted line represents the ball-target line, and intended direction of a straight ball flight. Red dot is the ball. Blue lines represent the hook-face arrangement of the clubface (exaggerated in this diagram).

To hit the ball straight, one has to take into account the fact that a golf club has an inbuilt hook face arrangement. That means that one has to place the ball behind the low point of the clubhead swingarc, and ensure that the clubhead is slightly open at the exact moment of first ball contact to ensure that the clubface is square at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation - if one wants the ball to go straight.

Could it be i) that your clubface approaches the ball minimally less open when you hit pulled shots, or ii) that you are hitting the centre of the back of the ball rather than the inner quadrant when you hit pulled shots, or iii) that your clubhead swingarc is not perfectly symmetrical to the ball-target line but fractionally open to the ball-target line when you hit pulled shots?

Jeff.

Perfect!!!! You are on it . .. forget about that over the top crap . . . you have a FACE PULL. Your pivot stalls a little bit and you need more shaft lean with that lil' bit turned left hand and stop having your head moving off the ball and releasing forward . .. you're golden. No major overhaul needed. Just fine tuning.

Nice post Jeff. And a nice golf swing.

Slowed Down Swings
 

I slowed down the film, if it will help anyone pick up on something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8izd_Lu8YM

Thanks, For looking at it.

Nathan

I decided to download your latest video to my computer, and I used my swing analyser program to study your swing in depth.

I found one flaw in your last swing that could predispose to pulling.



In your first two DTL swings, you have an excellent downswing pivot action (hips first, shoulders second) and you have a good posture at impact. Images 1/2 shows that your pelvis is open and your shoulders less open. However, in your last swing (see image 3) you can see that your pelvis stalled in the downswing, and it failed to complete its rotation even though your arms are now fully extended towards the target in the finish phase of the swing. That failure to rotate your lower body well started in the early downswing and it seemed that your upper torso was rotating much faster than your lower torso, which means that your kinetic sequencing was out-of-synch in that particular swing. That type of error would cause the equivalent of an "upper body dive" swing, which causes an out-to-in swingpath through the impact zone and a pull if the clubface is square to the clubhead swingpath. It is difficult to tell if your clubhead swingpath was out-to-in in that particular swing because it was not DTL.

Here is a photo showing the results of an "upper body dive" movement where the upper body turns much faster than the static lower body.


Jeff.

You guys sure Mike O isn't on to something here? No more right arm at impact...not enough under...post impact still on inside of flat back foot...like the hips rotated in place and upper body coming up and over and prematurely ahead of lower.

No . . . It's because the pivot stalls and the arms run off his body.

Following up on my post- (thanks for the slow motion video Jeff and the still frames!) - My guess on the "cause" of Nathan's issue is that he has worked on keeping a steady head - yet transferring that thought into a "no weight shift feel"- because it is easy when your weight shifts to the left side to feel as if you are moving the head. As a result of working on head still- the arms go around the hips so that the weight doesn't shift and you don't get a feeling of moving but more a feeling of staying centered. It's using a valid visual que (head still) and translating it into an invalid feel que. Easy to do! That's also why on the backswing the shaft is slightly laid off as the head still concept has unknowingly limited some rotation and proper loading of the club. (Please don't read this and think I believe that you should try to move your head- that's not what I'm saying)

Are you on crack! Mike O's an idiot! Ignore any of his posts! What were you thinking!

Good advice- including possibly retaining some spine angle (as viewed down target) - would be a nice addition.

Thanks for the Advice
 

Hello,

I just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to look at my swing and everyone who gave their opinion on what they viewed. It certainly wasn't required by anyone, and I am very thankful!

You guys are great and if I can help out anyone just let me know.

I am going to try and go to the school in October, so hopefully I will get to meet some of you there.

Nathan