vj: Your thoughts on putting
 

vj: My putting is dreadful . I average 36 putts per round . I am a better than average long putter and make more 15 to 20 ft putts than I ought to but I can not make should make 4 ft putts or might make 8 ft putts. Hitting mainly pulls but blocks also. I am happy to start from scratch . Can you go into your thoughts on putting from stroke to posture . I know many here would be more than interested in your insights. I left this post on the Manzella forum

http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/for...?TOPIC_ID=1864

called "Who are the top putting gurus?"

Your name came up

Thanks

:D
Equipment matters, vision matters, and mechanics matter. I know that doesn't say a whole lot but those are the things I look at when working on my stroke or anyone elses.

TGM has been my only true influence in teaching and playing. I have 100 other books I have bought over the years spanning from vision training, biomechanics, to Swing the Handle. Everything confused me before TGM. Being a good player I wanted answers and everybody just had feelings. That was my attraction to TGM.

Page 39 "AS LONG AS THE CLUBSHAFT HOLDS A STRAIGHT LINE RELATIONSHIP TO A STRAIGHT LINE-POINTING AT A STRAIGHT LINE." This changed the way I thought of putting. Obviously I feel one of the more important components of putting is keeping a straight plane line.

The next step is to decide what plane angle you are utilizing. Is it a plane angle which runs through your thorasic vertebrate, up the clubshaft, up the elbow, etc. The reason is because the 3 dimensional plane will project a 2 dimensional arc on the ground. The arc of attack vs the angle of attack.

From there the face of your putter must hold its relationship to the arc, hinge action. YOU SHOULDN'T CONFUSE THE SIZE OF THE ARC AND THE ROTATION OF THE FACE. Understand your plane, its projection on the ground, and your hinge.

VJ - do you feel that the model you based the putting arc on applies to the full swing? With the swing 'center' being the thorasic vertebrae.

vj; Thanks for getting back to me. What are your thoughts on ball position relative to the sternum and hitting down or up on the putt? a friend of mine gave me the Harold Swash video " The best kept secret in golf Putting " to look at. He suggests playing the ball two inches forward of your sternum so that you hit the ball on the upstroke. With all the garbage I have read on hitting up on the ball with the driver I take a lot of pop golf advice with a pinch of salt. What are your thoughts on his advice/ How close are Stan Utley's ideas on putting to yours and what are the differences? Thanks.

:D
Good morning.

I don't feel the swing center is the thorasic vertebrate for the golf swing. The center is the left shoulder. This brings up interesting topics. For one, Mr. Kelley called it the left shoulder plane angle and was a X classification. Look to page 154. This plane angle runs through the thorasic region of the spine. Using X ray, the rotation of the shoulders will move the thorasic vertebrate only, if the pivot is zeroed out, and this is why the putting arc projects this arc on the ground.

My feeling on ball position is simple. Get it as close to the middle of the stance as possible. Dead middle is best, but a couple of inches in front is ok too. DO NOT HIT UP ON A PUTT. Putts are hit just as shots on a miniture scale. Of the countless video I have at the moment of impact the better the putter the lower they hit on the ball. Bad putters usually have two things, a lie angle which is too upright and at impact they hit very high on the ball.

Swash is an interesting fellow. I can't say anymore.

Utley is a great short game teaher. His concepts and the putting arc are related but I have worked with some guys that he works with and there are differences at times. I think Utley wants some players to swing on an elbow plane and others to swing on a left shoulder plane. Don't take this to the bank, that is just what I see in different players.

vj: Thanks for your advice. I think Swash did a good job inventing the CGroove but I was not too impressed with his teaching in the video. Harington's stance looks too weird to me and I know Swash teaches him so I already had my doubts about him. I will take your advice on ball position and will not hit up on putts any more. What are your thoughts on getting a good putting posture ? I know putter fitting comes into this. From what I have seen Utley likes to line up the forarms with the shaft plane. Are you big on this? Are you into releasing the putter head through the stroke or are you more of a a keep the triangle guy?

:P

Proper fitting plays a pivotal role. I do believe in getting the forearms on the same plane as the clubshaft, just as in the full swing witht the right forearm, so the arms and putter shaft are moving in the same plane. It is a mechanical disadvantage to not have the forearms in plane with the putter shaft because of the arms and putter moving in different planes.

I don't know if you would call it a "release" of the putter face. I feel the angled hinge suits putting well and I attempt to explain it by "allowing the toe to always move further than the heel." You can use any of the hinges putting, but I prefer to have the face stay square to the arc of the stroke. THis will result in an angled hinge.

The term "release" should not be thought of as a wrist throw or breakdown. Often I see players that throw the putter with their wrist during the downstroke but I can assure you they are not very good putters.

vj: Can you go into uour set up ? do you like a lot of bend from the waist? Do you like to have the ball directly below the eye line ? What putter length IYO is right for most people?

VJ....while searching for something else i came across this and i wanted your overall opinion of it. Thanks

Jim

www.lindsayputters.com

Belly Putters
 

VJ, I have been using a belly putter for several years and am much better for it, but I was never a good putter. I also do not look at the ball, once I set up I look at the place I'm trying to roll the ball to. Do you know of any others that do this. I feel it helps me keep my head still and feel the distance better. I average 32 putts and would like to improve, so anything you can say will be greatly appreciated, Thanks Rick

:D

Good morning Rick. Dirt Road Moore and Johnny Miller are the only two people I know that have looked at the hole when they putted. Players usually get to this place by having a hard time staring at the ball and beginning their stroke. It is not a terrible thing, so if you like it stay with it.

One thing though. Do your eyes trace the roll line of the ball? Your eyes need to trace from the hole back to the ball, check your clubface, and then trace from ball to hole, ....and fire. By trace, I mean your eyes should move along the intended roll line AT THE SAME PACE THE BALL WILL BE ROLLING. Don't be haphazard in this.

Here is a drill. Go out to your course and drop two balls at ten feet. Hit the putt and count from the moment of impact until the ball gets to the hole. It will probably be in the range of 4 seconds. Now go back to twenty feet and do the same. It will probably be in the range of 6 seconds. Now go back to 30 feet. Now go to 5 feet. Get a TIME the ball will be rolling and plug that into your routine of eye tracing.

PS- Downhill putts use more time than uphill putts.

:P

Jim 0068, I hope the world finds you healthy today.

The proper set up has more bend from the hips than the shoulders. In other words, the hips are up and out (anterior rotation) and the spine will be bent some at the shoulders. I don't want to see a player humped but neither do I want to see a player with their shoulders pulled back exposing their chest so to speak.

The eyes should be either directly over the ball or slightly inside the ball depending on gaze. If the eyes gaze vertically down (your neck horizontal to the ground) then the eyes would be directly over the ball. If the gaze is angled (the neck angled to the ground) then the gaze would be just inside the ball. This is getting technical, and I suggest getting the eyes over the ball line with the dominant eye directly over the back of the ball.

Putter lengths should be 34 to 31 inches depending on height. A good rule of thumb is to have the top of the putter come to the bottom of your zipper when you are standing up. This will give you a length that will enable you to get into a good set up.

VJ - Good Stuff!!!
 

Thank you for the information on putters and setup.

Do you have any favorite drills to improve putting

that you would share with us?

vj: Your replies have helped a lot. Have you produced a video/DVD on putting yet? If not do you have plans to do so ?Other than your website do you have any articles that you have written on putting that we can find on the web. Who in the modern game adheres to your ideas most closely? I am trying to form a vision of what your putting style looks like.

Thanks VJ....good information but not sure why it was directed at me. :?:

I was just curious if you could take a link at the link i posted and comment on the design.

VJ,

Where did you get your information on gaze?
What about 'tracking' the line from ball to target? This becomes difficult the more curved the putt.

My information about gaze came from Tony Sills. Sills won the 1993 Shell Houston Open and is one of the most knowledgeable people I know about vision training. THere is also some useful info at Geoff Mangum's website about gaze.

vj: Is there a lot of difference between the stroke you teach and Geoff Mangum's?

:D

Hue, I do my best to help players understand the geometry of the circle and how it relates to their game. Mangum likes to see the shoulders work more vertically than I do and alleviates face rotation. (This is what I have gotten from him anyway) He is an excellent instructor though and his forum is the greatest instructional forum on the web.

vj: I have followed your advice and have moved my ball position back from the former Swash recommended forward position and have lined up both forearms with the shaft to be on the same plane. I am working on keeping the shaft pointing at the base line at all times throughout the stroke. My strike now has much more authority and the sound of the putter hitting the ball is much better . It just sounds right for some reason and the ball is rolling much better. Also I now feel my stroke has some lag . With the forward ball position I feel this promotes throwaway and a skinny strike. All the things you have aluded to seem to comply with the principals of TGM with the putting stroke being described as a mini golf stroke which I am comfortable with. I have gone from a poor putter to an OK one but want to become a good one. Can you go into the VJ Trolio preferred putting posture and set up and go in to your thoughts on putter fitting as I want to take things forward ? Also can you go into pros whose putting strokes are close to what you teach and admire? Thanks.

"Practice" is observation, selection, adjustment, etc.-the flexible "researcher" approach. "Playing" is concentration, discipline, supervision, execution, etc.-the inflexible "performer" approach. Neglect neither." Homer Kelley

Don't forget this as we dive in. With the ball middle of stance and the forearms in plane, the eyes are next. Get a mirror of some type, it could be a make-up mirror or you could get a small 4 by 4 piece cut from your local glass company. Practice each night setting up to the mirror with the eyes over the the sweet spot of the putter or just to the inside.

Practice bending more from the hips than from the shoulders by standing down the line from a mirror. Practice this daily while keeping the forearms in plane.

Do the above 60 times each day for 30 days.

All that is left is the selected hinging and plane angle.

Go on :D You knew I was going to ask you about this.

Just got the "Putting Arc". Awesome tool to learn both arms straight.
I feel my right shoulder, arm (righty golfer) going down and through....

:D

Hue when selecting your hinge action remember the following. Horizontal is closing with no lay back, angled is closing with lay back, and vertical is laying back only. It would seem at first that vertical hinging would be best, and if you like it best stay with it.

When selecting a plane angle remember the flatter the angle the smaller the arc (meaning more towards a circle it will become).

I personally chose the plane angle of the left shoulder (which goes through the thorasic vertebrate) so that I could move my shoulders only. For me this is the simplest stroke. There is nothing wrong with using the clubshaft or elbow as a plane angle either. It is all a choice isn't it. Just make sure it fits the geometry of the circle.

Remember, 60 times each day for 30 days at home looking, looking, looking.

vj: I am a little confused here. Does this mean in your preferred set up you like the putter shaft left forearm and arm on a straight line ? Thanks

vj: Other than the Putting Arc which you invented

.http://www.theputtingarc.com/



What other training aids do you use when teaching putting? I recently bought a grip with a laser at a car boot sale which I use to track the baseline. I have found this quite useful. I am thinking about getting a laser device to train better accuracy in putter face alignment .

http://golfjustlikethepros.com/GTAPu...uideforweb.htm

What are your thoughts on ProAim glasses?

http://www.futuregolfbrands.com/pa5000.php

How do you train people to get the putter face dead square? Thanks

:D

I think any aid which helps you trace a straight line is good for your path. You must select a hinge though. Moving the shoulders only will create an angled hinge motion without any added hinge. You can use vertical or horizontal. Any will do but the "deviations must be nil."

I use the proaim glasses, a straight line laser, the putting arc, two balls with a one axis (they looked glued together), electrical tape, two tees set very close to the edges of the putter. I use a lot of stuff to monitor the head and face.

:D

Hue,

By the left shoulder plane angle I mean a plane angle running from the sweet spot through the left shoulder (or thorasic vertebrate). The forearms are in plane with the shaft and neither are in plane with the left shoulder plane. THey are below it.

I lock them in with my wedges and let it fly through the on-plane rotation of the shoulders.

vj: Thanks for all your help. In my last two rounds of golf I had 27 and 28 putts that is a big drop from my average 36 and this is down to taking your advice in this thread. I had a lot of comments that my putting has improved from playing partners . I was practicing on the putting green on Sunday and a complete stranger commented on my roll and said I looked like a pro. The lasers are due to turn up this week and I will now get the Proaim glasses and look into the other training aids you mentioned. What do you think of the whippy shafted putter as a training aid ?Swash sells one called the Rhythmiser. Also what do you think of the Cameron cube? I am really getting it to this and want to go from a good putter to a great putter.

vj: When you say you like to see the ball in the middle of the stance . Is this the middle of the ball or the back of the ball (the point of contact ) that you like to see in the middle of the stance?

:D

Hue,

Point of contact in the middle of the stance. Remember this is a preference, nothing more. I do feel this inables an individual to put the bullet hole through the middle of the ball much easier. By hitting the ball in the same place every time your distance control is CONTROLLED.

I'm confused kinda here VJ.

You say to hit down...that would mean to me that you would prolly hit HIGHER on the ball (top to bottom, with the equator being middle), no?

and I thought that putts struck above the equator produced overspin...whereas hitting lower produces backspin. I've read that you want overspin.
------------------------------------------

What do you think about Brian Manzella's article on putting VJ? Have you read it?

Thanks for all the help VJ.

Two ways to think of hitting the ball correctly with the putter.

Number one- Hit the ball with more of the top of the putter instead of the bottom.

Number two- Hit the center of the ball with the sweet spot of the putter.


The bullet hole through the center of the golf ball and the sweet spot of the putter covering that hole I love. Now that bullet hole would be horizontal to the ground not at an angle up or down.

From here you can get into the low point of the golf swing. The further back the ball the more downwards the putter head will be moving. The further up the more upwards the putter head will be moving. This is the reason I love what george lowe said so long ago, "keep the ball between the feet." By doing this you are assuring yourself of a bullet hole through the baseball on a fairly horizontal plane.

DON'T HIT UP!!!!!!!

K thanks for the explaination man.

So do you float the putter then?

...but I thought low point (the bottom of the circle) was left shoulder not middle of stance...no?

:shock:

The lowest point of the golf swing is the left shoulder. We will go into the ball position soon.