Shoulder disruption problem.
 

I have a shoulder disruption problem.

I hesitate to bring up this subject because I have seen that Yoda “disfavors” it at best. Hogan has, in 5 lessons, taught that unifying the arms in a manner that at the extreme is demonstrated by banding them together. The points , to my understanding, are that the arms are united into a machine like triangle. I have a bad habit of letting the shoulders go in strange, disruptive directions. Without restraint I will lift my left shoulder, with traps, up towards my ear . This displaces my left arm and is very disruptive. The use of extensor action in itself DOES NOT restrain my shoulder. I need to establish a solid structure that will inhibit this action and I have found that the Hogan principles build this structure for me. This is an action that creates a solid feel and I have not found it disruptive . It fits swinging well but as long as latitude is given to right arm positions it also fits hitting.

I would be very interested in any other methods for controlling the “roaming “ and disruptive shoulder.



The Bear

Dear HB,

Lifting the Left Shoulder is a common posture problem with a common cause and a simple solution. More on that later.

Hogans procedure is typical 10-7-C "Double Shift" and the Double Shift is a common TGM Variation. I'm trying to figure out how you use it to prevent your problem with lifting your left shoulder.

What is it about the Double Shift that allows you to make a correct Backstroke shoulder turn while using a Zero or Single Shift you don't?

Signed,

Curious

I have a 10-7-A "zero" intention. The shoulder is a BAD habit which needs control. It is sort of a mannerism. I am intent on removing bad habits that are disruptive. Easier for me to slip into because of the following : I address and start from impact fix. I like it but you can see how easy it is to get left shoulder set wrong if that is a habit and not consciously corrected . I go to "turned shoulder" at top, but again, although I have aonsciously corrected it, I had a habit of lifting the left shoulder to give left arm more backswing. and the worst of all, I am overshifting hips. The shoulder then can create an "artificial tilt, shorten the effective left arm, create the need for a little left knee bend to get back dowe etc. Just by keeping my left shoulder down and forwards at all times I eliminate all sorts of disruptive compensations.
Hogans pulling the shoulders together in front is my solution. I have no practical reason to "shrug" either shoulder at any time during the golf motion so I need to prevent it. Now I am ready for solutions.
Thanks

An afterthought:
2-H as I read it says -You can"t do much with the left shoulder because.... I say, YES YOU can do a lot with the left shoulder BUT DON'T. I'm Just trying to get to DON'T.

The Bear

This is one of my favorites. Golfers introduce compensations to correct faulty execution; the "slippery slope". Yet that's exactly what non-TGM golf instruction attempts to do.

12-2-0 spells it out. 24 components - no need for compensations. The price you'll pay is having to understand and execute the 24 components correctly.

The Hogan Book. Remove page 42.

Lifting your left shoulder occurs because your Left Hip is out of alignment. Your left Hip is out of alignment because your left knee is out of alignment. Your Left Knee is out of alignment (or not bent enough) because your left foot is flared out toward (out of alignment) the target (Five lessons, page 42). Flaring the Left Foot disrupts bending the left knee which causes the left Hip to move too close to the base line of the inclined plane. Then, during the Downswing, it will cause you to stand up out of posture.

The Hands move the arms, the arms turns the shoulders, which turn the Hips, which bends the knee, which rolls the foot, raises (pulls) the heel. Something like that.

Mine also.
This is "my first wobbly point" now. I had to look, look, look back through the pivot until I saw this shoulder problem ( I found it "at Top of backswing over the winter).


The Bear

heavy lifting by the left side?
 

Bear

If I may, you seem like you are uniting both arms and shoulders into a rigid unit. An effort that pretty much necessitates a Shoulder Turn Takeaway and some heavy duty lifting to get the Hands to Top. A very common thing back when we learned to play. Heck Homer , in his break down of Bobby Clampetts swing made note of his similar action.

Yes Hogan recommended turning the two arms into one big arm via a banding together in his book but it has been argued by Leadbetter and others that he didnt actually do that himself when playing. Another fella , cant remember his name, the John Schlee disciple guy, suggested this was due to limitations arising from his car accident and that if not for that he would have actually banded them together. What ever..............

-The arms do present a problem in that their motions are not the same. They attach to the body at different places after all. They cant do the same thing exactly , even if you did band them together. Id suggest its best to just embrace their differences, a banding together cant unify them really but it can lock them up which will exaggerate the problem.

-central to the notion of Extensor Action is the String Like, inert left Arm. It is a solution to the arm problem only if the left arm is inert.

-The Glossaries definition of the Pivot........dont have my book with me right now but paraphrasing........"a multi lever assembly that delivers the right arm along the plane". To me meaning that there is a whole mess of different levers, each with different motions , different directions, allowing for, enabling, powering the right arm and #3 pp's Tracing.

-The Shoulders and the Arms do not travel in the same direction either, so a rigid attachment at the arm to shoulder connection is ill advised as it will mandate that the shoulders and arms travel together as one..........most likely under plane given a shoulder turn takeaway. Ideally the Shoulders in Startup turn BACK, around on a flatish plane and the Hands and arms go UP. See the Vectors and the McDonald drills too, Wild Bill Melhourne etc etc. Lynn likens this to patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time. Something we do all the time during the course of our normal day, reaching for things......multi levers, independent motions, scattered vectors..........but netting out with the Hands traveling towards their target.........the mug on the top shelf in your kitchen or whatever. You dont lock up and align your shoulders and arms to accomplish that. You dont even think about your shoulders really.............you just direct your hand to the target. Very Homer like isnt it?

-a rigid triangle normally includes a rigid right elbow. No bending, no cocking the left wrist with the bending right elbow, no Magic of the Right Forearm. The only way to get the club back is to turn the shouders (Pivot to Hands) and then LIFT the hands and arms up to Top. Its very common to do this as a left sided push away of the shoulders. A left arm and left shoulder push of the club back in Startup. With the left side " turned on" activated doing some work, it will do a reasonable job of pushing everything back , albeit under plane but once back about half way it is faced with getting the hands to Top. Something the left side is poorly positioned to do. Try swinging with just your left arm on the club and see how difficult it is to lift the hands to top with the left arm. Not easy at all. Hence Homers recommendation for a right armed Pick Up.


Perhaps this relates to your situation perhaps not. It was a huge problem for me a while back. My One Piece, rock the triangle, Pivot to Hands, shoulder turn takeaway , my heavy lifting, often got my left shoulder raising up. Keeping it down was actually a swing thought for me at the time. In the end it was symptomatic of a the muscles I was using to take the club back and up. Merely trying to turn it off of tone it down didnt stop it.

Now I have a Right Forearm Takeaway, my right elbow bends which cocks the left wrist and lifts and lowers the Hands. My left and right arms work independently of each other but in a co ordinated manner. My arms to body connections are free of tension to allow for my arms and pivot to travel in different directions. No more left side push away, no more heavy duty lifting.

RFT is a beautiful thing........but you have to get the left side out of it and loosen up the connections. No more triangle rocking. The right elbow can get a lot of stuff done, its simplification and automation as well. I used to struggle to cock my left wrist , now it just happens. Cant stop it really.


Here's a quick test: If you can hit reasonable little chips and pitches with just your right hand on the club but all hell breaks loose when you attach the other arm..........you have some left sided action getting into the mix. A left side push away maybe, a tight left shoulder and a shoulder turn takeaway maybe.............. I do sometimes, to this day...........but they used to teach this as a method way back when. Old habits are hard to break. And the seventies were filled with bad ideas about golf and hair cuts.

Geez O.B. Great post.

OB, Bear, do you RFT from address hands?
 

Is the RFT mostly horizontal or flat in nature?

I learned a level handle, yesterday, and a full hip pivot. My back shoulder and elbow are thrown back into my side and the hands, arms, and shoulder feel to slide up plane while a space is created between elbow and hip.

Reversing the pocket sends everything down plane and left. How does RFT increase speed or power? :confused1

Pat

Thanks
 

Thanks Daryl and O.B.
Me thinks the surface has bearly been scratched on this topic. I am and will enjoy it because it will leave me with a much better understanding of the mechanics and dynamics involved.

The Bear

Not sure what you mean by flat?

With your pivot zeroed and right arm alone out in front of you its a combo of horizontal arm motion (fanning) and vertical lifting via the (bending) the right elbow. The horizontal and vertical , the fanning and bending blend together they do not happen sequentially.

Another way of seeing it is: without a club go to Top, Right Shoulder High with the Right Hand only. Now keeping your Right Hands relationship to the Shoulder in tact, return your shoulders to their address position. Your right hand is now somewhere over your right knee or there abouts. You have now isolated the true movement required of the Right Arm in the Backswing. Not as big a motion as you would first imagine.

A good deal of the IN of Back, Up and In, Three Dimensional Takeaway, is provided by the turning Pivot. You can also now see the Fanning and Bending required by the right arm in isolation. Its a horizontal and a vertical which when blended can become a diagonal, assuming you start the Pick Up , Right Elbow bending in Startup.

As a side bar, Yoda showed me the two middle fingers of the right hand, the ones that snug up the #1 pp , which tugs the left arm, Extensor Action.......these two fingers are now the main actors in my Right Forearm Takeaway. They can take care of EA and the RFT, fanning, bending.

Is it that simple?
 

By zeroing out the pivot, you control your backswing with RFT? A "slight" backswing would allow you simply drive your shoulders and arm according to whatever your desired hinges? On a full-blooded drive, do you carry your shoulder all the way back?
Smooth strike right? Do you simply roll the back shoulder and hit your aimpoint with your wedges (based on which hinge/ball shape)? As long as you know your aimpoint, timing almost doesn't matter?
If I imagine pushing my back/right foot against a wall, the back shoulder rotates and right arm thrusts, like Tommy Armour's driving the back leg!

Lastly,Jeff, how many different types of cuisines can one find in Center City Toronto? Is the Senator Steakhouse still operating?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Pat

The zeroing out of the Shoulder turn was only to isolate the right arm's motion during the takeaway in a full swing. A real golf swing will need the pivot to provide the IN of Back , Up and In . Just realized I made a typo in my post to you. I said BACK when I meant IN before sorry. The pivot provides the IN. Ill correct it.

The Senator is still there but the jazz bar up stairs is long gone sadly. It was one of the nicest rooms in the city.

No Worries!
 

I knew what you meant. It is very cool to see the simplicity of the RFT. You helped me understand why I always doublecock the wrists. I simply had no idea of the pivot's necessity and power. I did RFT without the pivot! :confused1

I just deduced that if I push my flat left wrist along the infinite straight planeline I get the pivot and a weight shift and level handle as in a chip or pitch or bunker shot or on my way up plane for a fuller shot. I guess Yoda keeps weight forward to give himself a better sense of shoulder control for whichever hinge he is employing. It seems so logical and simple and DO-ABLE. God bless America, Canada, ok, everyone, and Tiny Tim! :)

Pat

I'm Back
 

The pectoral muscles hold the shoulders forward and inward. All other actions disrupt the relative sides and angles of the triangle.

I need to stop the disturbance of "extra" shoulder movement.

The Bear

Gett'n close ..........but if you push the left wrist it aint an RFT is it? Its all very similar to what we do all day without thinking about it. You reach for something, your brain and your hand working together, the hand going to its target , the pivoting just happening naturally and in no way aligned to the target......cause it doenst need to be. We'd be totally spazoid if it were any other way. We dont move like anywhere else so why in golf? It a false logic, one of many. Just take your hand, your bent right hand to its destination...........Top , Right Shoulder High. Trace while your going back and down. Thats about it. The pivot will comply in a just as much as is needed manner, not too much , not too little.

If you have ingrained other moves, actions , you will need to turn them off.

For the Standard Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder can move back on nearly a horizontal plane . This was Brian Gay's swing thought when he won at Harbor Town last year. Right Shoulder flat back. Hands go up, under right elbow bending power. Just like in the McDonald drills. Their movements must be separated, which requires a loose shoulder to arm attachment.

Ideally you dont even think about your shoulders, it just complies with what your brain and hand are doing. Like when you're reaching for a mug that is behind you and on a high shelf in the kitchen.. You just reach for it, no thought to pivot. Hands to Pivot!!!!!!!!! Is natural, how we do everything.

Going down the Right Shoulder has a job to do as it takes the Hands downplane towards the ball on a Turned Shoulder Plane. See 2H Shoulder Motions. Standard Shoulder Turn