RFT Confusion??
 

I have been watching the Alignment Golf DVD and absorbing as much as I can with each viewing. It is amazing how I keep picking up different things each time.

I have question with the right forearm takeaway that maybe someone could shed some light on. If my understanding is correct;
As the right forearm moves up the plane, the right elbow moves up the plane too. At some point the forearm has to begin rotating and at that point the elbow stops going back and becomes sort of a pivot point. My question is where does this happen? Is the elbow in front of me, even with the seam of the shirt, behind me (a la Hardy)? I am confused as depending on posture and club selection, it can vary but I would think there has to be a general area. I feel like I can have it in different places with each swing. Perhaps I am completely off base altogether? Any insight would appreciated. Thanks

Hi Scott. Your confusion mirrors mine. Sometimes, when I turn during a pivot, the club face does not open to the infinite planeline. Last week, my GSEB proved to me that my shoulders control my club face which still blows me away. Based on that info., I'm concluding that a square to the target club face means the back shoulder is rolling off the planeline and I'm about to create a hook if I don't bring the elbow underneath. I think Mr. Hardy's stuff is a funky Horizontal Hinge chicken.

I am emotionally prepared to be corrected by my LBG 'betters" knowing that wisdom from making mistakes is way better than continued ignorance of this great game!

Pat

Daryl To The Rescue
 

I think these wonderful drawings sum it up. Mr. Kelley's ideas on RFT are nothing like Mr. Hardy's.

In my opinion, the stick man on the right of the second picture shows where we want the right elbow to move to, up the plane. The stick man on the left would be more typical of someone who wants to start the lawn mower, under plane IMHO...

Kevin

The right elbow has to go under the inclined / clubshaft / sweet spot plane, starting immediately from address.

And it will not get back to the surface before you reach impact or thereabout. If it stays up in the plane or comes back too early you have a throwaway problem.

You can basically study any decent golfer down the line and you will quickly see that this is the only way.

OK, let me see if I can sing along and get the meaning of the words.

A- The "single shift-prepared to roll" does not reveal the on-plane right forearm which is important. In effect, if my right forearm starts on plane, so does my elbow (?).

B- If that premise is correct, when my forearms trace the inclined plane, doesn't my right elbow fall below and parallel to the sweet spot plane of necessity ( as Bernt R states)?

Drum roll for the ending of one of my misunderstandings...So, the only way we can effectively put the right elbow back on the sweetspot plane is by extenging the right arm/elbow in our desired approach?

C- If the above is a correct observation, my Jim Hardy type failure to rotate the right/left wedges (lawn mower move) means possibly, 1) a failure to roll due to a stuck elbow showing tension for whatever silly swing thought 2) an off-plane back shoulder movement, 3) a strange misrepresentaton of a Horizontal Hinge (like Orcs were strange misrepresentations of the race of men, ogres to dwarfs, and something else to elves according to Tolkien's notes).

D- I don't have a clue as to how you fellas use a Horiz. Hinge to hit a controllable, mostly straight sort of draw. When I try the HH, I hit a ball that goes 2/3'ds straight and 1/3 rd left with any club.

Could you explain my mistakes and misunderstandings on these topics?

Pat

Don't understand what you try to say hereNaturallyIf you try to trace the inclined plane with your forearms your pivot will get in the way of your hands and vice versa. Tracing the plane with your clubshaft (and therefore the hands) is what you want to do. Not the forearms, not the elbows, not the shoulders.

Your left forarm is above the plane from address and a long way into the follow thru. Your right forearm will be under the plane between address and impact. The only things that really are on plane here are the club and the forces you swing it with.

You don't have to do anything deliberate to put the right elbow back on plane. And if you should strike the ball before it's back that wouldn't be such a big deal either. It is when the elbow gets above the plane that you are in trouble.

He-he. Good one.

Here's how I do my vertical hinge: I wait with the pivot and swing my hands forward and eventually past the pivot so there's minim lag beetween hands and shoulders at impact. A very gradual, slow and almost amputed release of accumulator #3. And I try to maintain good hands speed to past low point. That keeps the clubface open.

For a horizontal hinge I do the opposite. I let the pivot lead and pull the arms through. I find it easier to accomplish this with more hip turn. And to the extent that I do any roll with the forearms it is in the opposite direction for a while - to keep the clubface open longer and delay the hinge action as long as possible. And when the time is right I let Accumulator #3 release. The A#3 release is the part where the club head goes from open and trailing to closed and leading. The hands speed is very moderate when that happens. The rate of forearm rotation can be very quick.

Centrifugal force will do it for you. But you must let your hands work like a passive hinge to make it work.

The more I lead with the pivot, the more I trail with the hands and the longer I keep the cluface open before A #3 is released - the more dual horizontal it gets. It is very important to keep the left arm stretched throughout, while at the same time keeping thos hinges oily. Pure rope handling + oily hinges.

No deliberately hands and forearm effort to square up the club. It may be very counterintuitive to begin with.

There's a lot of light bulb material in letting the dual horizontal happen. A key to move past steering tendencies lies there.

Could be all sorts of reasons for that.

First: Check your grip. If it's too strong the ball will turn left.

Perhaps you are bending the plane. And steering. And bringing your right elbow above the plane you were supposed to swing along - thus bringing your hands and your club outside the intended plane and back in for an outside to in swing.

Innercity,

I'm sure the shoulders influence the face to some degree, but the grip and left wrist have way more influence on the face.

I know when I think of right forearm takeaway, it gets me looking great on video, but I can't play my best when feeling it. To me it feels too hard to get a good transition at the top. I can't feel my left side, but it looks awesome :)

Innercity,
I don't think you should worry too much yet about whether or not you are hinging Horizontally or Angled. I'm thinking straight line delivery with the heel of the right hand covering the ball. It is a lot easier to actually do, for me, if I make sure the shaft is running right up the cup in my right hand and the Right Arm On Plane. Tues and Wed. I hit it dead straight with the irons a bit of a draw with the hybrids and woods.
After taking stock of my right arm and pp's #1 and 3, I grabbed a wedge and focused on H, A, or V hinging. Then I grabbed a 7 iron and tried to pay attention to only my hands. Then a hybrid and then a driver. The clubhead goes where my hands take it. If I over cook it, I am pretty sure I turned the back of my left hand over too much.
I am still stumbling in the woods, but at least I can see some daylight, though sometimes it appears a bit overcast.
This application of pressure into (through) the shaft is nothing short of startling. I kick myself nearly everyday for not finding this many many years ago.

I'm sorry to seem so spazzy, Jerry, Kev, and Bernt..
 

but this is just too cool for school!:notworthy

OK, let's see if we can synch-up with the same concepts.

Straightline sounds beastly strong which would add nice counter-balance to Jerry's report of Kevin's Brut aftershave. or was it Aramis, Kevin?

And BerntR, Elygc1, would you share with us the origin of your names? And we want graphic details and regional "local color."

I must provide a story, of course, from my unusually ineffective school. This happened in some part of the school today, according to unnamed sources I happen to know.

On second thought, let's keep it for a golf outing or personal email. Bernt, show me yours if you wish and I'll show you mine. Jeez, that sounds like something Jerry would say! :toothy1:

Ok, back to superb golf insights.

Jerry, are you saying you grip the club with your right hand, making sure it's below the thumb and up the inside of the forearm? It is address position?


And then, you trace the right forearm as a spoke of a wheel up the plane?

Then you pivot or do you just step on the front leg and shoot the arm straight through the ball adjusting the hands for the hinges?

No thought of shoulders? Elbows? What about good Chinese places in MN? I don't want more than one good smorgasboard, OK? :eyes: Steakhouse? Will the temperature be above 40 degrees in August? Any chance of snow? :laughing9


ICT

Hi Bernt, you have given me a lot to consider.
 

Thanks!


Naturally, If you try to trace the inclined plane with your forearms your pivot will get in the way of your hands and vice versa. Tracing the plane with your clubshaft (and therefore the hands) is what you want to do. Not the forearms, not the elbows, not the shoulders.
Ok, that makes sense.

Your left forarm is above the plane from address and a long way into the follow thru. Your right forearm will be under the plane between address and impact. The only things that really are on plane here are the club and the forces you swing it with.Check, very logical. Sort of a "plane sandwhich," made with forearms. Are we starting with an address position?



It is when the elbow gets above the plane that you are in trouble. I'm not sure how I could do that.


Here's how I do my vertical hinge: I wait with the pivot and swing my hands forward and eventually past the pivot so there's minim lag beetween hands and shoulders at impact. A very gradual, slow and almost amputed release of accumulator #3. And I try to maintain good hands speed to past low point. That keeps the clubface open.

For a horizontal hinge I do the opposite. I let the pivot lead and pull the arms through. I find it easier to accomplish this with more hip turn. And to the extent that I do any roll with the forearms it is in the opposite direction for a while - to keep the clubface open longer and delay the hinge action as long as possible. And when the time is right I let Accumulator #3 release. The A#3 release is the part where the club head goes from open and trailing to closed and leading. The hands speed is very moderate when that happens. The rate of forearm rotation can be very quick.

Centrifugal force will do it for you. But you must let your hands work like a passive hinge to make it work.

The more I lead with the pivot, the more I trail with the hands and the longer I keep the cluface open before A #3 is released - the more dual horizontal it gets. It is very important to keep the left arm stretched throughout, while at the same time keeping thos hinges oily. Pure rope handling + oily hinges.

No deliberately hands and forearm effort to square up the club. It may be very counterintuitive to begin with.

There's a lot of light bulb material in letting the dual horizontal happen. A key to move past steering tendencies lies there. I will have to take this to the range and see if I can get all this. I did find EdZ's drills for HH and I will let you and everyone know what I experience with all this. Thanks for taking the time to help!!!

ICT

Innercity,

This is amusing. You are taking this thread to new heights.

My first name is Bernt. It is a short form of the German name Bernhard and means Strong Bear. Why my parents gave me such a name is still a mystery. :laughing1

I basically knew it before I moved to Texas, but I get daily confirmations that the world isn't ready for my name yet. And probably never will be. (Well, when I think of it, there are even norwegians who struggle with capturing it.) Anyway, those who need to know here in Houston are usually down and counting after we are done with the first name. And very few has made it past the second vowel in my family name yet.:laughing9

My wife suggested that I reinvented myself as B5. That would be sort of taking the name after the Eyjafjallajökull volcano on Island that was nicknamed E16 by the CNN reporter because it had something like 16 syllables and was regarded impossible to pronounce. Concequently my family name would be R17.
____________
B5

- strong single overlap grip
- pitch / punch hybrid basic stroke
- 4 barrel swing
- Open - open plane line
- Turning shoulder with double shift
- impact fix with low hands
- Four pressure point combination
- standard pivot
- standard shoulder turn
- standard hip turn
- standard hip action
- Right anchor knee action
- Flat foot acction
- Single left wrist action
- Drag loading with additional downstroke drive loading
- Delivery path throw
- Power package assembly point: Side
- Power package loading: Full sweep
- Delivery path: Top arch and angled line
- Snap release

In other words: Grip it and rip it!

I am getting a headache now, I am so confused. :-)

My original question has been rattling around in my head for two days now. I am thinking if the right forearm and right shoulder are connected then simply moving the right forearm up the plane with the hands tracing the plane line. When I get the club shaft to about parallel with the ground and with the target line, I let the right shoulder pull back and then let the forearm rotate clockwise and that seems to keep the club on plane. Pivot has to play a role in all of this as well. I am trying to turn back with the right side with minimal lateral sway.

Does this sound viable? I am a mess right now.

Welcome to the club:salut:

The back swing has to support the three dimensional down stroke geometry right from the beginning. Continous and smooth from the very first inch.

Any glitch in the first 5-10 inches on the back stroke has a tendency to put an inprint on the down stroke quality. From putter to driver.

You gotta start moving that right forerm and right elbow under the plane right away or else you're preparing for trouble and compensation.

No- but with the caviot I am learning- try this first.
Stand with a wall about 2 feet to your RIGHT, take address stance, place right hand on left shoulder left hand on right shoulder, turn your shoulders, only shoulders, keeping them level to the ground, towards the wall without moving your feet, until they stop, now allow the hips to allow the shoulders to turn more until you face the wall. move both hands to palms facing the wall at shoulder width, both hands should be at same hight and at shoulder level, DO NOT MOVE THE SHOULDERS TO DO THIS, turn the right hand palm up and at plane angle like you were supporting the plane, streighten the left arm and place the left palm on the right palm. Comfortable? if yes good if not, make yourself comfortable because you are at the TOP ( close enough for now). Stay there 10-15 minutes and memorize this comfortable position. GOOD, go back to address and with your right forearm take your hands up the plane to the position you memorized. Just do that until it is a comfortable move. Play the game in front of you, thats all.

remembering I am a beginner
The Bear

Bear,
That sounds pretty good to me. You said something there that very interesting to me..."make yourseld comfortable". This is a great point. I sometimes get very twisted and convoluted trying to get into a good position and I am not comfortable at all. It reminds me of something that Hogan once said, it was something along the lines of golf is a pleasant game.

Sometimes I forget this. I make it too brutish trying to kill the ball.

I'll give it a shot and get back to you.

Bernie?! Bernie!!!!! Whatdya say Bernie?

Can you live with this informality? You can call me ICT or Pat.

Nice to meet you!

I'm liking the clubshaft tracing the plane line, alot, btw, Bernie!