Did the PGA mess-up?
 

Did the PGA mess-up their big tournament?

Let’s look at the chronology:

Likely playoff player 3 is addressed by PGA official after completion of regular play. Looks like the player was told of a possible rules violation.
This appears to be a surprise to player who is now faced with decision .

BUT

Did the player have a free decision, or was he intimidated by the PGA?
Were and are the PGA decisions and intended actions going to be the same regardless of the player’s decision?
Will the PGA put the same effort now into determining if a rule violation, in fact, did take place? I think not now that the player took the penalty.

BUT

What where the players true options. Either take the penalty OR risk an in depth review by the PGA that could result in a TOTAL disqualification for signing an incorrect score card.

No way to look at it other than the PGA messed-up big time.

Bears Thoughts

If you look at the facts rationally, Mark Wilson and the PGA ruled absolutely correctly, and any other ruling would have been irresponsible and not in keeping with the USGA Rules of Golf.

How can anyone say the "PGA messed up big time." This is being chanted all over the web by people who do not have the first clue of what they are speaking.

Kevin

really?
I had not seen the "chanting all over the web".
in facct- I have neither heard nor read anything on the subject.
These are my original thoughts. From my personal observations. (on TV )
BUT
I remain;

The "clueless" Bear

You expressed your opinion, I expressed mine. I have no desire to argue further.

Kevin

I agree with the Ruling that had been posted as the local rules everywhere for the player other than maybe on their bag.


Johnson to Fehrity: Maybe I should have read the Rules a little better!

You can disagree about the local rule but not about the Ruling.

More Quibbleing
 

The issue-to me- is not the rule but the method.
There were 2 options.
1- do not confront the player and leave him to sign his card at his own peril

2- Inform the player AND provide complete and dcisive information as to any rule violation.

The problem is that the player did not seem able to make a informed decision. And I don't think anyone known if a rule was in fact violated. No mater how it is spun.

Dumb rule, no rake and people standing in it mean it is a waste area at best. But, they put it in the rules sheet, Johnson should have seen it or his caddy should have. Kevin is right on, it still stinks though. Kaymer could be the next Bob Goalby.

Perfect, lets do idea number one, let him sign his card, then we'll have to DQ him and cost DJ about $500,000.00. Makes good sense.

#2 is exactly how it was handled, good job there, where is the quibbling and spin?

I agree with Dodger, very tough ruling, but it is what it is. The officials had no choice but to apply the penalty.

Kevin

I did not like the way it played out, but once the official explained their stance, I understood and accepted the decision. I don't like it, but I understand it.
I think it was very fortunate they talked to the competitor prior to his signature on the card. It preserved his place in the event and salvaged very good pay day.

Its all very unfortunate but it played out as it needed to given the local rule.

Its a shame that a design esthetic could contribute to such confusion. The course though entirely man made and perhaps a little over the top in its art direction was spectacular to my North American eye. The inspiration for the bunkering design is not from any man made bunkers but from the work of sheep.


And so, Gents, local rules aside, .........I need a ruling.

This is a course I played a few weeks back , Brora in the north of Scotland. Designed by James Braid , sheep and cows wander the course, the greens are surrounded by electric fences , it has bunkers as we know them and then these ones. Freshly made, this one by the fella at the top of the frame who had been resting in it until I spooked him and he left.

If my ball was to come to rest in this "bunker" ......should I considered it a hazard?

P.S. I know this is beside the point as far as Dustin is concerned but I couldnt help but think back to this course and wonder whether James Braid would have grounded his club.


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128193057 5


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128193085 7

That really is quite the mowing crew.
Did you even consider a Mulligan?

Fortunately I never landed in one of those bunker types. Just the normal ones.

I love "local rule sheets."
 

The "local rules" distinction seems analogous to the "Enumerated Powers" given to Congress in Article 1 of the Constitution while limited by the Bill of Rights. (Congress is just a local golf tournament while the Bill of Rights is the PGA/USGA! Make it so LORD! :) )

There are usually "local rules" in any tournament. Touring golf pros understand the importance of those rules and amazingly, abide by those rules week after week on tours all over the world.

I have been to the sand dunes of Indiana and Wisconsin, and all around Lake Michigan and Lake Superior. I thought the young golfer was hitting off a sand dune. I thought it was very decent of the PGA folks to stop him from signing an incorrect score card and losing so much cash!

I played at Carnoustie many years ago with a Wednesday group of pensioners. They had a local rule about only charging each other one shot as the balls rolled into the water on the 18th fairway. Not only did I shoot a 98 but I lost 6 balls on that hole! :eyes:

They did buy the pints later, though!:happy3:

Patrick

What happened to Dustin Johnson was a big misfortune. And I guess no one wants to see such a ruling be decisive of the outcome of a tournamant.


Feherty tried to seed doubt as to whether those bunkers should be regarded as bunkers. That would have been nice. But also stupid. After seeing how much emphasis PGA had put on the local rules and the bunkers especially in the information handed out to the players before the tournament it would have been very unprofessional to give Dustin a relief just because he was in contention. There must have been hundreds of golf shots hit from those bunkers during the four rounds, where the subject players treated it as a real hazard. Too bad that Dustin Johnson wasn't aware that he was in a bunker, but obeying the rules is a part of the game even though it is not a core golfing skill.


PS:

Did you enjoy Brora, OB Left?

I played it two years ago and I can't wait to get back. I think James Braid has to share the glory with the almighty father on that course. Brora is perhaps the most natural beauty of a layout I've ever encountered. The cattle and sheep are btw (more or less)movable obstructions :happy3:

I guess you played Royal Dornoch as well while you were "up north"?

Imagine what a non-issue this would have been had DJ hit the fairway or perhaps missed by only 20 or 30 yards right.

It's a tough but fair ruling. Too bad people want to cloud the issue of a guy hitting an absolutely horrible tee shot with all the chips on the line with "he got screwed by the rules".

CG

Well....

The "special/local" rules was handed out at beginning of the tournament so the ruling, AFTER the hole was played, was/is correct.

Although, and based on what I have thought was general,

- Don´t the last groupings in majors have a referee following in each pairings?
- If so, should he/she not had talked and pointed out, as a reminder, that this was a bunker?

Think what reactions we could have had if he had made the birdieputt.

2 questions:

Are those electric fences of the type that go - Ping....Ping.....Ping...all day long?

Was it all Four or just the fella putting that brought that DARK cloud overhead?


Curious Bear

Ah! I get it now.
 

Ahh! Now it is clear.

The shadow- when the spectators made a shaft of light through. It was at this point he touched the sand where the light was.
But the light is a natural element. He asked the spectators to block the light. He was "building a stance?" or whatever -the same as having an umbrella held while U putt?
Where are the rules people when U need them? I don't think that violation was reported.

the "complicating" Bear

Thanks for finding this Jerry!

14-2/2.5 Player Positions Bag for Purpose of Providing Shade for Ball

Q. A player positions his golf bag near the teeing ground for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from the position where he tees his ball. He then makes a stroke. Is he in breach of Rule 14-2?

A. Yes. As the player was not in contact with the golf bag, he accepted protection from the elements in breach of Rule 14-2. This answer differs from that in Decision 14-2/2 as, in that case, the player was in contact with the umbrella.

While a player may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball, he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball.

That's the real question isn't it? How did other players treat this area? We'll never know how others played it because most of the 100's of other shots from this area and similar ones weren't on TV. On TV it looked a lot more like a trampled, worn sandy area than any sort of a bunker, but if you caught the computer graphic of the hole where they showed DJ's shot, the ball was being shown in a bunker.

Too bad he didn't just hit it straight(er). :(

Respectfully BamBam,

NO. It doesn't matter what other players did when not on camera. What matters when applying the rules of golf is officiating what you see, using all the resourses available to you.

Fair? No

Golf is not always fair, but we can't fault the PGA for the way the situation was handled. We are being vilified for doing the proper thing.

Kevin

Ah-ha, He DID in fact ask the spectators to completely block the sun. That WAS an additional violation.

The "vindicated" Bear

wow, one of us is a really bad reader...

HE asked the spectator to block a shaft of light that was on the ground. His positioning of the spectator IS a violation.

Problem with ...???

The "Restating" Bear

My last try:

he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball.

He did NOT bring someone in to position him to suit the situation, he was simply trying to keep the shadows of the crowd in place consistent and still.

The player does not have to deal with moving shadows on top of everything else going on.

Kevin

Its not the officials responsibility to tell the player! if a player is in doubt he then can ask the official. Rules officials do not say oh by the way theres hazards on this hole just to remind you and here's your options its the players responsibility the same when you go to school, play golf, play poker, go to jail everything in life the rules are laid out in simple english and here's the great thing if you dont know you can ask the 100 rules officials on the 18th hole just like Bubba Watson did who didn't know his options.

I didn't communicate clearly on my last post. It should've read "How was this particular bunker/trampled area ruled for other players that weren't on tv?". And that we may never know. You are correct; what other players do is irrelevant.

I agree with your assessment of all this 100% if that was a bunker. Based on what I saw on TV and by their definition of a bunker, I'm not convinced one way or the other. It was hard to see with all the people covering most of that ground. I've played enough golf on the dunes of Lake Michigan to know there are plenty of naturally occurring sandy areas on most lake-side/dune courses, even without thousands of people walking on the grounds.

The PGA had eyes on the ground, and they made the best call they could; I can respect that. Dustin should've hit the fairway, and given the local rule, he should've been extra cautious when he didn't.

I've played in over 100 sections events never has the rules official standing or sitting in the cart say hey there's hazards out there so her's the options- never. But when i hit a golf ball in there and i didnt know my options and asked for help they were more than helpful to point them out.

Sir- you must review the tape- He clearly positioned the spectator to make a full shadow.

I will now predict a complete disqualification - likely today.

the "stuborn" Bear

Also let's consider the player dosen't know any rules- ok. How about the caddie watching from 30yds away why? Now we have 2 idiots. Golf 101 Jack Nicklaus i never ground the club even when i putt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen enough of your posts to know you have better than average reading skills. I am baffled by your continued argument over the decision I posted. We will just have to agree to disagree. Good luck with your prediction.

Kevin

I will now predict a complete disqualification - likely today.




Once the card is signed it becomes official! End of story Bear

Close:


Same result through a different interpretation. In my mind, he didn't break the rule, see posted decision, and if he had un-knowingly, he may no longer be held accountable as the competition is closed.

Kevin

DJ played the course all week and possibly several times previously in his career. 18 is covered with bunkers. How could he not realize he was in a bunker??? IMHO Just a case of being so caught up in the moment he forgot the rules.

Kev,

Thats why he didn't sign it right away a breech of the rule was in question so when the official stated the decision it then became official and then he signed the card. Correct?

Return to original thesis
 

Then I return.

The PGA messed-up by NOT enforcing a clear rules violation.

The "circular arguement" Bear

Exactly. When signed and the player leaves the scoring area, his score becomes official as signed. Any penalties may still be applied however, until the competition is closed. Thats why people get DQ'd for signing incorrect scorecards. Their score is official, but the competition was not yet closed.

Once the results are announced, all bets are off except for the exceptions posted above. Clear as mud?

Kevin

he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball.

Sorry, I know I said I was done, I'm just very frustrated as I feel I am banging my head against the wall. It hurts, but I can't seem to stop.

Kevin

DJ played the course all week and possibly several times previously in his career. 18 is covered with bunkers. How could he not realize he was in a bunker??? IMHO Just a case of being so caught up in the moment he forgot the rules


History is showing that in the final rd this guy dosen't think to well in majors. Maybe if he didn't flunk out of Coastal 2 major victories and also the caddie is fired if i dont know the rules i want my caddie to know them