"Third Rail" topics
 

Things I like to see discussed:

“THINGS” That will either raise your IRE or be to your DELIGHT or simply Open your incubator.

#4 accumulator doesn’t work that way!
Basic stroke curriculum (12-5) is not for beginners.
Hogan’s tilted lower plane feel is real.
Hogan’s “banded” arms feel has real value.
A shift to the elbow plane is necessary to use #3-#2.

That is a quick, one minute, list! There is always more.

Merry Christmas to All.

The Bear

I'd add:

Right arm "thrust" to hit or really "throw" (hard to fan and thrust)
D-plane -- relevant or not? (and what became of A, B & C?)

'Round the Campfire
 

#4 accumulator doesn’t work that way!

You lost me there, Bear. What way? :scratch:

Basic stroke curriculum (12-5) is not for beginners.

The Basic Motion Curriculum, Stage One (12-5-1) starts with the Grip (12-5-1 #1). What could be more basic (or important)?

Hogan’s tilted lower plane feel is real.

For the 95 percent of golfers who come 'over-the-top', I couldn't agree more! But remember, that Feel is of the Inside-Out Angle of Approach (of the Clubhead) and On Plane Thrust (of the Right Forearm and Lag Pressure), not of a shifted (to the right) Baseline of the Inclined Plane.

Hogan’s “banded” arms feel has real value.

I strongly disagree. Both the illustration and the 'feel' it creates should come with a warning label. :(

The 'banding' of the arms with its 'together' elbows destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and its in-line support of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. This is damaging at Address -- it's okay, Tim Clark, you can stick with it! :laughing9 -- but it is disastrous at the Top (fortunately, by this time, Tim has reorganized) and fatal at Impact.

Hogan had the correct Feel -- which involves a tension in the upper arms that caused them to adhere more closely to the chest -- but he didn't tell us how he did it. Worse, he left us an illustration guaranteed to create the wrong feel!

:shock:

Hogan got his Feel by using the Extensor Action (6-B-1-D) of his Right and Left Triceps to stretch his Left Arm. That action creates a stretching Tension Force -- the same as that present in the structure of suspension bridges -- in the upper arms that also causes them to move marginally closer together and thus adhere more closely to the chest.

Unfortunately, in Five Lessons, that Force (Non-Accelerating Thrust / 6-C-0 #2) was misinterpreted (and illustrated) as a Compression Force -- the exact opposite of a Tension Force -- one created by bringing the elbows 'in' toward each other. This action results in a horizontal, squeezed condition of the arms and not an in-line stretched condition. Both actions create upper arm tension and upper body adherence, but whereas the Tension Force creates Power Package Alignment and Structure, the Compression Force destroys it. So, if you want to feel what Hogan felt, do what he did, not what he said he did.




A shift to the elbow plane is necessary to use #3-#2.

The Release of the Hand Power Accumulators (Uncock and Roll) occurs 'On Line', i.e., on the Straight Plane Line (the Third Imperative / 2-0 #B-3). The Plane Angle itself is the player's option. It is perfectly possible for the Right Forearm and Hands to remain on the Turned Shoulder Plane through Impact.

[Photo to Follow.]

:cool:

swing left or down the line
 

i would like to know the differences of two swing styles. the one that goes down the line, and the one that goes left.

[Yoda's Note: This is Hungry Bear's response to my reply to his Post #1. His originating Thread points are in Black Bold. My responses are in Blue. His responses to my responses are in Red. Enjoy!]

************************************************** *


#4 accumulator doesn’t work that way!

You lost me there, Bear. What way? :scratch:

"Prying" the arm of the chest gives me a short shoulder. Pulling the left shoulder has leverage.

Basic stroke curriculum (12-5) is not for beginners.

The Basic Motion Curriculum, Stage One (12-5-1) starts with the Grip (12-5-1 #1). What could be more basic (or important)?

If I dont know how it will fit into a total motion I will have wasted my time because Everything has to fit.

Hogan’s tilted lower plane feel is real.

For the 95 percent of golfers who come 'over-the-top', I couldn't agree more! But remember, the 'Feel' is of the Inside-Out Angle of Approach (of the Clubhead) and the On Plane Thrust of the Right Forearm (and Lag Pressure), not of a shifted (to the right) Baseline of the Inclined Plane.

I believe that is the feel of the plane the hands ride on.

Hogan’s “banded” arms feel has real value.

I strongly disagree. Both the illustration and the 'feel' it creates should come with a warning label. :(

The 'banding' of the arms with its 'together' elbows destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and its in-line support of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. This is damaging at Address -- it's okay, Tim Clark, you can stick with it! :laughing9 -- but it is disastrous at the Top (fortunately, Tim reorganizes there) and fatal at Impact.

Hogan had the correct Feel -- which involves a tension in the upper arms that caused them to adhere more closely to the chest -- but he didn't tell us how he did it. Worse, he left us an illustration guaranteed to create the wrong feel! :shock:

Hogan got his Feel by using the Extensor Action (6-B-1-D) of his Right and Left Triceps to stretch his Left Arm. That action creates a stretching Tension Force -- the same that is present in the structure of suspension bridges -- in the upper arms that also causes them to move marginally closer together and thus adhere more closely to the chest.

Unfortunately, in Five Lessons, that Force (Non-Accelerating Thrust / 6-C-0 #2) was misinterpreted (and illustrated) as a Compression Force -- the exact opposite of a Tension Force -- one created by bringing the elbows 'in' toward each other. This action results in a horizontal, compressed condition and not an in-line stretched condition. Both actions create upper arm tension and upper body adherence, but whereas the Tension Force creates Power Package Alignment and Structure, the Compression Force destroys it. So, if you want to feel what Hogan felt, do what he did, not what he said he did.



[/url]

I am just going to sratch th surface. I feel this was his extensor action. Put your hand against the front edge of your desk, you can push away like a punch or you can push away by rolling your right elbow under. 2 different tricep muscles. the second provides an effortless stretch and all 4 components of extensor action. The first is a DISASTER that creates tension and does none of the extensor components.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UAE6...layer_embedded

A shift to the elbow plane is necessary to use #3-#2.

The Release of the Hand Power Accumulators (Uncock and Roll) occurs 'On Line', i.e., on the Straight Plane Line (the Third Imperative / 2-0 #B-3). The Plane Angle itself is the player's option. It is perfectly possible for the Right Forearm and Hands to remain on the Turned Shoulder Plane through Impact.

[Editors note: Apparently no response from The Bear.]

:cool:

That whole "connected" idea (I was a Ballard follower when I first started playing in the 80's) I believe has led to most of the problems I have with swaying and ultimately flipping.

The Whole Truth . . . Nothing But the Truth . . . Not Just the Left Truth
 

In a Rhythmic, On Plane Golf Stroke, the orbiting Clubhead moves outward -- to the right and towards the Plane Line -- until it reaches its Low Point. Then, and only then, does it begin its journey inward -- to the left and away from the Plane Line.

The Flatter the 'exit' Plane Angle (after Impact), the more 'left' the Stroke will appear. But, this is a matter of Plane Angle, not Plane Line. The liberating truth is . . .

In a geometrically-correct Golf Stroke, the Clubhead never moves away from the Plane Line before Low Point, and it never moves toward the Plane Line after Low Point. So, it's Swing right, and then, Swing left.

:shock:

As a simplified alternative . . .

Trace the Straight Line Baseline of YOUR Inclined Plane!

:cool:

Connection -- Real and Artificial
 

The true idea of "connected" is Lag and Drag. That is, in an efficient Golf Stroke, each lagging Component puts a drag on its preceding, or leading, Component -- in both directions. In other words, from Address (and its Pre-Shot Routine) to the Finish and at all points in between (from Feet to Clubhead), you feel the Drag of the Lagging Clubhead.

Connection is all about Sequencing the various Components of the Total Motion to create the mandatory Lag Pressures.

It most assuredly is not about creating static and artificial pressures of one body part against another. In fact . . .

That way lies sorrow.

:salut:

Do As 'The Hat' Does
 

Great link to a Greg McHatton ("The Hat") video. Thanks, Bear!

However . . .

I must note that, except in the four seconds when he demonstrates the contrived 'elbows twisted inward' misalignment (0.55-0.59 of the video), at no time do Greg's arms appear 'banded together.' Instead, his Arm Action is simple and natural: Each Arm is independent (in Structure), yet unified (in Purpose). As were Ben Hogan's. The difference between the demo and the actual is dramatic . . . and instructive.

Other than that brief demo of the Five Lessons 'yarned' arrangement, Greg's arms exhibit the true alignments. They are not the hand-me-downs of a 'classic', yet seriously deficient text.

As I said above . . .

Do what they do.

:smile:

P.S. For the record, Greg was one of five students in our January 1982 Master Class with Homer Kelley. I respected him then as a wonderful Champion Golfer, but I respect him even more now as a Champion Golf Instructor. Though we've had no contact since -- that is about to change! -- I've been privileged, through the miracle of the Internet, to become reacquainted with him and to observe his style of teaching. Congrats, Greg, for all you've done in your career these many years since. Most especially, thank you for your contributions to Homer's legacy. It was the road 'least traveled by', but the one that made all the difference. http://www.psalm40.org/bobfrost.html

:salut:

Sorry about not including the proper note on what Black, Blue and red meant. Thank you for the explanation.

Agree, you are correct BUT The feeling that Hogan conveyed is important. And that is all that is good because he does not do as he feels.
Yoda, you win the prize hands down for precision alignment knowledge. BUT I have to give the prize for conveying the feel in the golf stroke to -first place, Ben Doyle and then hogan.

Merry Christmas

The "Jolly Old" Bear

Don't I know it! Between the sway I developed and all that unbending of the right wrist from years of other sports, I've struggled for years and years to get a consistent, powerful swing. I think I have a chance now!

The Winner
 

Especially in that group, Bear, #3 works for me -- big time.

Thanks.

:salut:

The Bridge
 

BMont,

You think you have a chance.

I know you do!

The bridge from 'can't to can' is our joint responsibility. My mission is to teach precision Mechanics and support that process with my faith in you. Your mission is to absorb my ideas and translate them into describable Feels. Once done, you will have faith in yourself.

First, in drill.

Then, in practice.

Later, onto the course and in competition.

Walking together across that bridge, the 'other side' comes closer and closer. Soon, you will be there.

And join the happy throng that has arrived before.

:salut:

I know I can do this -- thank you for reminding me.

And thank you for reminding me of the progression. I made great strides this summer, but playing took priority over drill and practice. Winter gives me time (snow since Dec. 1).

I don't know if Bear only had technical talk in mind, but other topics I'd like to talk about involve why TGM never quite "took off" and what we could do to get Alignment Golf into S&T levels of popularity (I've been recommending this site to all my friends).

One thing that occurs to me is that TGM is kind of like a religious conversion -- there is a bit of faith initially to get past everything you thought you knew about golf so you can "see the light" as it were.

I'd also like to see a discussion about how everyone incorporates insights from other "methods" or systems. Do you look at everything from a TGM point of view? Through a TGM filter? As peer level thinking (i.e. each has equal weight)?

A Double Trifecta of Big Ideas
 

No religious conversion required.

Just big ideas to understand.

In Life, here are at least three material 'biggies':

Food.

Money.

Sex.

Everybody knows them.

And experiences them in their own way.

As they are fundamentally . . .

And, in their endless variations.



So it is with the The Golfing Machine:

Centrifugal Force.

Hinge Action.

The Inclined Plane.

As they are fundamentally . . .

And, in their endless variations.

:salut:

Lynn's post " Unfortunately, in Five Lessons, that Force (Non-Accelerating Thrust / 6-C-0 #2) was misinterpreted (and illustrated) as a Compression Force -- the exact opposite of a Tension Force -- one created by bringing the elbows 'in' toward each other. This action results in a horizontal, squeezed condition of the arms and not an in-line stretched condition. Both actions create upper arm tension and upper body adherence, but whereas the Tension Force creates Power Package Alignment and Structure, the Compression Force destroys it. So, if you want to feel what Hogan felt, do what he did, not what he said he did.

So as I understand it. EA is very important. It is mentioned frequently in the "checklist of all strojkes" The compression force is destructive and should be avoided. EA is a tension force that does compress the arms to the chest and that is all the compression that is needed. No separate compression or banding force!. Another A Ha moment for me. Even after hearing you talk of Hogan's banding picture at Cuscowilla I didn't connect the feeling of EA vs Hogan's banding feeling. So extensor action is all that is needed!

Another thought

It would be helpful for me to tie MacDonald's exercises to extensor action. MacDonalds seem so relaxed and free flowing. Putting together the power package with EA seems to add some tensions. So should you add tricep extension to MacDonald's? I know for me doing EA often seems to lead to some interference with folding and unfolding of the right arm. If you are doing LFT the muscles fire to do the pickup and they need to relax is swingers to allow for "throw out" Of course hitters don't have to worry about that cause they are firing them. Lynn can you elaborate this

Call For Clarification
 

I don't understand your sentence, David. Please rephrase, and I'll do my best. Thanks!

:scratch:

Speaking of the right elbow and EA, at what point does the right forearm and the shaft form the 90 degree angle?

That EA can be tricky if you get the elbow facing the side at the top rather than the ground, thus having more that 90 degrees(and less support), or get the right wrist cocking and creating less than 90 degrees.

Not sure the mere use of EA will get the correct alignment without some strong monitoring of how that elbow is working.

For me the "conversion" was more one of accepting the TGM components (and the big three) and abandoning "position" golf -- very freeing to know there is no one "right" way to swing a club but many variations on a theme.

I say "religion" but maybe a better term would be "belief system" or even just "system" -- a way to understand and explain the world around us from more easily seen/understood (address, alignment) to the more mysterious (impact, compression).

For me, TGM provides a system that I can learn and apply. I'll interpret everything else through that view. That's why Trackman and D-plane are important elements to incorporate and explain in TGM terms. If we have real data (Trackman interpolations aside), then we must be able to explain it by TGM or change TGM to improve it or ultimately we should abandon TGM in favor of a superior system

So far, it looks to me like TGM as a system explains or includes all the popular "methods" or applications (S&T, Hogan, etc.) at least as well as any other system can explain all of them. That's why I find it interesting -- a Unified Field Theory for golf! Learning it should de-mystify the swing and only leave execution as the final frontier to ball striking (and then the final, final frontier of "scoring" -- but that's bordering on voodoo and witchcraft there...:laughing9 ).

I'm incubating that sentence and my chicken may hatch(a Ben Doyleism) without you sittin on it.

Brian, that's why I enjoy it so much.
 

Because TGM is based on a solid bio-mechanical foundation, almost all swings can be described and worked with, imho.

ICT

Yep, system versus method. I think that is both its obvious strength but also its ultimate downfall -- it takes a lot of work and study to understand the system and then you still have to put your pattern(s) together and then you have to be able to execute it. I think most methods do the first two parts for you.

Downside to methods are, however, you better hope the pattern they teach fits you!

So, TGM is ultimately for those willing to work on multiple fronts...

Happy New Year, Brian.
 

During Christmas break from school, I went a little crazy and started to read the promotional material and view DVD's from Mr. Greg McHatton (Swinger with TGM pedigree), and I'm reading Gravity Golf (Swingers with TGM backgrounds whether they realize it or not), SwingMachine Golf (Swingers who are somehow related to TGM), the Somax institue and "Secrets in the Dirt," which are TGM guys.

My swing lacks power. Mr. Mchatton, as a Swinger, focuses on Hips. So do the Gravity Golf guys and so do the BEn Doyle folks, imho. I'm not sure what the SwingMachine stuff is.

What I've noticed is that with passive arms and hands, my hips cause my arms and hands to really fly up in the air. The Gravity Golf guys seem to be playing "above the rim" so to speak!

Maybe I'll pick up a few yards in distance being really loose and Swinging from my heels and hips. They brag about Jack Nicklaus and Freddy Couples. They remind me of Greg McHatton, too.

Anyway, I see TGM elements everywhere and I do want to teach golf after teaching school in about ten years, so all of this is prolegomena to my last career. I'm excited about seeing Lynn in April and while I'm putzing around I will do some of the hip exercises recommended by the Somax people but will not buy there $275 machine! :naughty:

I need to lose weight. I'm losing a few pounds on Weight Watchers. I have to check with my doc about the hip exercises but nothing they list (leg lifts) seem too wild.

ICT