Throw away / loss of lag pressure?
 

I am new to the site and purchased the DVD and worked on basic motion. After a few hundred of those my handicap dropped from a 10 to about a 5. My irons I hit well and feel like they are consistent, but my driver hooks a lot. I keep trying to ensure that I am not flipping, but no consistancy like the irons. The video I posted has a ton of shaft bend which I don't see on the pros. Is this because I am doing throw away or loss of lag pressure. Is there any posts that tell me how to improve this with my driver so that it is bent the other way instead of forward?

Thank you very much for your feedback in advance. JC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_YgBLypBMw

Wow that was much harder to see then I thought. When viewing it in slow motion at impact the shaft at my hands is pointed behind the ball (don't seem to be flipping), but there is a huge "C" in the shaft as the club head bends forward to hit the ball.




Again thank you for your help!

The shaft does kick forward and is not an indication of Throwaway necessarily. For iron shots the impact with the ground bends it back, again. The difference in bend as seen in slow mo vs regular is the subject of some debate. Some think its an illusion or artifact some say its real. Either way assuming a properly fit shaft for your swing speed the cause of your hook lies elsewhere. Divergence between face angle and clubhead path is the place to start your search. Then search out the why associated with your faulty impact geometry. Work it backwards from Impact in other words.

As you do this sort of thing more and more you'll start to notice patterns and most likely
see root causes that have associated subconscious compensations that mask the root problem. For instance : a guy hitting weak fades. Diagnosis: open face at impact and outside in path. The face reverse rolling , steering vertical hinging as a compensation for the outside in path which hit the odd left to left shot prior to the compensation. Cure: fix the club head path and roll a horizontal hinge which brings back all the lost compression.

Ok you probably guessed this is one of my patterns if so, you are correct. In working on covering , trapping mid irons while hitting indoors over the winter, I'd over done it , not worked through my entire bag enough and had ingrained a slight over the top move . Which works for a mid iron kinda sorta but is a disaster with a less lofted club , long iron
or driver.

So there's cause, compensation, cure and the reason behind the whole sad affair. Well intentioned though it was. When I got my Horizontal back the balls starting flying again.

So if some guy on the range offers you a tip...... Ask yourself if it's a compensation or not. It may seem to work but only serve to further mask your real issue. Professional help speeds up the healing process.

Nice swing there jlcowper you look like you can bend a shaft pretty good

Solid answer O.B.

Looks like this man can flat out thump it. Could the problem with hooks come from such a big increase in axis tilt? I would love to see what would happen if we could get a little more centered at impact.

Kevin

Ball position code red. Good looking motion but forced to stop and attempt to throw it in an effort to square face. Look how back on you a line up from the ball would be at the 0:01 frame. (If that's not correct, try the 0:02 frame as it is our last option) Move ball forward and that pivot will be a bit more centered where you can drive out that pressure you're wanting to feel instead of playing defense.

Sidebar: what cha feedin them calves? ?? :)

jlcowper These are some seriously good pros talking about your situation here.

Impact geometry but why? Hanging back , ball position ....maybe both? Maybe one is the root problem and the other is a compensation? Maybe not.

Maybe you hit so many shots in Basic and Acquired that it changed your ball position with the driver adversely? Moved it back? Maybe not.

Welcome to LBG hope you think this line of thinking is more revealing than some guy just saying you're doing this or that wrong ..... period. There's more to the story, often.

You gotta understand the impact geometry or you're doomed to suffer from its implications. If you tee the ball way way back of low point with a driver youre clubhead is traveling Forward, Down and Out to low point . Think about the OUT . With an iron , given the more upright plane angle and the loft etc it wont tend to hit a curve ball as much.......but with a driver, look out.

Cause and effect, so obvious, yet I totally missed it. :crybaby: Great pair of eyes Mr. JT! :salut:

Kevin

Love it OB !!! :salut:

Kevin

Ball position, axis tilt and regressive roundhousing
 

Ha! My last two rounds have begun with being greedy for more distance and roundhousing all over the place. :crybaby:

Despite starting with 52 last week and 3 lost balls on the front 9 , I shot par on the last 5 holes and one birdie for a finishing 41 by keeping my balance and axis tilting. If the ball is too far forward I cannot maintain balance. As my axis tilt gets warmed up, I can slide the ball a little more forward for a very high fade with my driver. :golf:

Thank you for all the feedback. Sorry it took so long to reply I was working on the honeydo lists and that got me off track. I really do believe “The Golf Machine” is the real deal and I have read many of you guys post and they are truly amazing (and sometimes 11 pieces of chicken to many for me to understand) but really good stuff. I must have 30 books on golf (including the golf machine) and some DVD’s. They all give good information, but nothing even close to Lynn’s DVD. The last two rounds I shot 75 (Darkhorse) and 76 (Ancil Hoffman) which are very hard courses in Sacramento. I hit driver about three times a round and usually two of them are terrible hooks. My 3wood goes about 260-275 and I can usually keep it in play. Irons usually put me on the green (Thanks to basic motion) and my putter is solid.

OB Left – Thank you for all your feedback. I have ready many of your post and they are a gold mine. “Forward, Down and Out to low point . Think about the OUT . With an iron , given the more upright plane angle and the loft etc it won’t tend to hit a curve ball as much.......but with a driver, look out.” This seems like why I am doing wrong (among many other things), but I am unsure of the thing to correct it. Impact Dynamic. With the irons I feel like I know where it is, even with the 3 wood, but Driver I have clue. I have the Nunchuk shaft which is supposed to be like a double or triple X. I bought it thinking it was going to stop that bending of the shaft at impact. About 2-3 years ago I use to play a pull /cut and I would just swing as hard as I wanted and it would go a long way, but there wasn’t any feel to it or consistency. (So changing it really screwed me)

JTillery – I agree with you my ball is back to far. I moved it back because if I move it more forward the hook gets worse. This is surely a bad compensation on my part, but I am not sure how to get out of it. Maybe clearing hips faster? Right now I feel like I am trying to get my shaft in front of the ball at impact and have some dragging of the mop. I 100% feel like I am playing defense with my driver. I feel like I have to steer the driver compared to my three wood which seems natural. Side note: I use to play basketball before the knees went out. The calfs have stuck around for some reason (probably to carry my gut around) ;)

KevCarter – Axis tilt? Am I leaning to far back at impact and that is why I am hooking? Should I be putting the ball more forward as JTillery is telling me and clearing the hips more and not leaning back as much? (Thank you for the feedback)

I decided to add two more videos so you can see the down the line view. My own assessment:

• Address – I am not sure how to get the shaft on the same plane with my forearm like Brian Gay does. (I have that video as well) I think it is because I am to tall, and I would have to bend over, which would not be good. Thoughts?
• Back swing a little flat below elbow plane (Working on that)
• Wrist bow at the top. Having a hard time fixing it. When I look over my shoulder in practice swing it looks flat to me, but in the video it doesn’t look as good. I must be compensating during the real swing because something else is out of sorts. Do I just need to work more on flying wedges with the video camera running? What should I see change in my right or left wrist to get me going in the right direction.
• I have some forward tilt and draw back on the swing (working on that for a while)
• I come down on the shoulder plane and I sometimes wonder if that makes it harder with the driver?

Duck Hook:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozqGEvsO0AU

Straight Shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8yPaD0K_xI


Anyway.. thank you so much for looking at my swing and giving me some help. I feel like I am just starting on my journey to actually know what I am doing. I agree 100% with a comment on the board that I saw. A 5 handicap has no idea what he is really doing.

Ok dude....you are swinging perfectly to smack some quackers...

Not the circle on your hands at address....you make a pretty nice "on-plane" backstroke....if you like that hand path (which I don't)....but one of your issues is clubface...it's shut...note in the impact frame you are raising up the handle over your hand circle...that shifts the plane to the right...but your face is shut...so you probably are gonna hit pushes and snappers....

Note how you steepen the shaft as your start down with your hands coming over the shaft plane at address...then you are a good enough player that you know you gotta attack the inside of the ball...so the shaft starts to shallow/fall back later which shifts the plane right and your hands are out away from you more...some due to you being a goat humping handle raiser...your hands are working out to the ball rather than the clubhead...the clubhead is falling back and under....note how your right knee is shooting at the ball...you are screwing farm animals and moving your head back...raising the handle up....

So how to fix????

My suggestion would be....the following

1. Gotta Fix the face...but you got that face because of your release motion and pivot so you can hit it on the course (sometimes)

2. Your wedge alignments are jacked up ...you are arching your left wrist... you need to do a search on wedges out here...there's plenty of great info on how the wedges work...but that archy deall is shutting your face (but you are arching so you don't push the ball off the map)

3. I like the way you swing your hands over the original backstroke plane...that would generally be the natural order of things....BUT that over move doesn't work from where your hands are at the top....They need to be much much lower and DEEPER...if you get your hands below the line of your shoulders you can work your right shoulder over/out to the ball and not bring your hands out and over that circle....

4. Once you get the hand path better on the backstroke...you can then work the CLUBHEAD OUT TO THE BALL AND NOT THE HANDS...look at the picture on the down stroke were the club is parallel to the ground...imagine that the butt cap had a light shining out of it...that light should be starting to look back AT YOU there NOT LOOKING DOWN THE LINE AND THEN UP IN THE SKY...that's cuz you got the clubfalling behind and under to the ball rather than the handle end working toward you while the clubhead is working OUT TO THE BALL ON PLANE...


5. One thing that will help your goat humping handle raising is feeling like you got a flash light shoved up your butthole...the way your are pivoting now you start shining the light from your butthole to the ground...you need to be mooning or shining your butthole light back behind you as you GO FOWARD...

6. Get your head to stop loading right....feel like you are looking UNDERNEATH THE FRONT PART OF THE BALL on the backstroke not the back part...


keep it real and film it again....stop looking at big boobs on youtube and fix your game...you got a nice golf stroke!

If I may add a note:

-#5 is best practiced in the dark and you'll need a spotter....

To answer your question to me above. Forget about where the ball is vis a vis your left foot. Its the balls placement relative to your left shoulder that determines where it is vis a vis low point. For a driver it should be at or perhaps slightly in front of low point. In front of meaning that you'll be hitting Up , IN and Forward which assuming a square face will give you a slight fade unless you Rotate your Plane Line to the Right and Rotate the Grip so the face stays square. Position the ball at low point to start, under your left shoulder. Preview Impact in Fix while checking your grip to make sure youre not closing the face in the process. On video check to see if your left shoulder hits its impact fix position dynamically if it doesnt the geometry has changed.

Problem is he is dynamically moving low point back by moving the center of his shoulder turn back and shifting the plane out to the right.....Hips and center of shoulder turn backing up...note how he makes the pine tree in set up disappear behind his head...looks like a fight to get underneath a shut face....this cat has some talent...time to get the vectors to line up via handpath, wedge alignment and pivot fix...working underneath with a shut face leads to some volatility....cat looks like a big strong mannnnnnn....could be dangerous if he got his junk to stay centered and sling out rather than sling under ....

Just a little tip from me to spice up the analysis by the two accomplished gentlemen'

Balance is one of the Three Basic Essentials per TGM. Without balance anything and everything becomes a device for regaining balance. Including lag pressure, plane lines and what have have you. You are almost falling over the target line in the finish of your straight shot. It looks like your right toe "pressure point pressure" juuust saves you from dipping over. But you have probably done some major compenstation before that to not fall on your nose....

Getting the weight too much towards your toes is a massive stroke killer. You should get more weight into your right heel in the back swing and pivot with a lot of weight on your left heel in the down stroke and follow through. So that you have full balance to withstand the centrifugal force from the throwout of the club towards impact. With a margin.

Wow... 12 Piece bucket... that was a really awesome breakdown of the areas that I need improvement. I am going to working on them right way. I was hoping you would reply because you always have very good detail and thank you for making it a little less technical for the new guy (Some funny stuff)

A few questions for you:

Recommendation #1,2 I will get right to work looking up the wedges and putting it on video so see what the deal is.

Recommendation #3 - It sounds like I need to not raise my right elbow as high so that my shaft doesn't rise up the plane as much (Pic4). That way on the down stroke the shaft traces between my elbow and shoulder like in (Pic3) but other direction. This would be a flatter downswing plane more around my body. Did I state what I needed to work on correctly? Deeper would mean I need to rotate shoulders body more so that my hands / arms move more around my body?

Recommendation #4 - I am a little fuzzy on this one, but it sounds like in pics 5-7 I am rotating my body to quickly which is causing the club head to get behind and allowing my right forearm wedge to completely bend back. So I need to slow down the body rotation allow the club to work down the plane so the club stays more out in front of where my stomach is pointing. Mcdonald drill #11? Also should I feel like my right forearm is an extension of the club as it moves on the down swing (More control vs. wet noodle like I was taught elsewhere).

Recommendation #5 - Ok, I think you are basically saying on the backswing I am bending over and on the downswing I am standing up. I think the recommendation you are providing is to have more body tilt over thru the swing. I struggle with this one. I believe that one of the main causes for this is the difference in Setup vs. impact. At impact I have my right forearm in a straight line with the shaft, which I think is correct. When I swing I shoot my head back to ensure I have enough room for this extension. I am not sure how to get in that same alignment (forearm in-line with shaft) at address like Brian Gay does. I am 6’4” which is probably a little bit taller than him, but I can’t figure it out without having a more upright address (Maybe that is the answer?). I think this is one of the causes for why I pogo / change axis tilt. Thoughts?

Recommendation #6 - All the books were telling me to keep my head behind the ball. So it sounds like I have completely over done it. I will think about keeping it more in front of the ball at impact. Maybe that will move it enough.

Again thank you for your feedback. If this pays off in my swing I will find a way to pay you back. I am sure you have a paypal account ;)

JC

Great observation

Dude you're on your toes at address. The goat hump is necessary as you pull your head and center of gravity ( from a dtl point of view) away from the ball ..... So you don't fall over a's the mass of your power package moves in front of your body.

Answers above.....

Could be on his toes....but that goathump is to get to the inside of the ball too...he's a 5 he says...so he certainly can hit it....6'4" big strong man...I'm sure Mike O will be googling him....

My observation on the address would be...

a. Stance way too wide
b. Ball back to far especially with a shut face shifted plane and an underneath release...all aboard the train to push and hook city...

c. YOUR ELBOWS LIKE HYPER EXTENDED....RELAX BROTHA...remember the left arm is a piece of rope...if you soften up that left elbow and kinda get some space between your arms it will be easier to get the clubhead to throw out as the handle works in...you ain't encountering the pulley....of course I have been accused of not knowing where the pulley is...but I know you can't get the club to over take raising up the handle and having the buttcap looking down the line that long...RELAX YOUR LEFT ELBOW...get some bendin your right elbow....that will help gettin that clubhead to sling out.

Yup. Hey Bucket did you get hit by the storm yesterday?

Could be a Compensational hang back too......a CHB.

There's a lot of guys who ( with a driver) set up with the ball back of low point and then lean back during the shot. Its actually an advanced golfer move. Some really, really good golfers do this , guys on tour. Heck there's people who teach this for a driver. I always wonder if its a Compensation for a bad ball placement, if they are getting the ball under their Left Shoulder or at Low Point dynamically (even if its subconsciously). Compensations are weird things. They speak to the geometry whether the golfers knows about the geometry or not. Know about or not we are subject to it.

Golfgnome diagnosed me doing this deal once at the Atlanta Country Club. Total eye opener to a hook producer. D was there too and concurred as I remember. Probably the last thing those two guys agreed on that day.......great great day.

jlcowper correcting the ball placement might just automatically get rid of the hang back move, maybe. There's different motivations for different maladies.......could be a Compensation or could be just a hang back for physical or psychological reasons. Those guys with a physically motivated hang back do start to move the ball back .......as they must.

Same with goat humps... you got your different motivations. Buckets a genius with that stuff though man, he wrote the freaking words to "My Hump" for Furgie for instance. Got Mike O. to hump his butt end back SoCal..... sumthin about a deal on a #5 flashlight hole bleaching near Beverly, Hills that is.

Mikie where are you? You got Daryl with you? And Jeff too?

Bucket , Ive never seen that last photo of Hogan you put up. Nice.

Those golf balls right beside his right foot? Touching his right foot. Thats a drill of some kind Im thinking. Maybe to do with not putting out cigarettes like you say? Like the balls would move if he didnt roll his right shoe over on its sole from toe to heal before he pushed off on it? I dunno.

Thank you 12 piece for all the great feedback. I worked on the flat left wrist and hand path in front of the camera for about 30 minutes a couple nights ago. Then without hitting any balls went and played using those two thoughts. And you were exactly right.. I started hitting high right pushes and some slices (Losing about 10 yards). Not a single snapper, which felt so good!! So after a few more holes I saw a consistent pattern with all shots and I started to remember what you said about my head being back at impact and how that caused my plane to point right and how I needed to use my right shoulder on the down swing to bring it around. So I started to focus on keeping my head in front of the ball at impact and using my shoulder. That got the yards back and the ball to stop going right. I ended up shooting an 80 while performing surgery on my swing during the round. Now I need to read all the new feedback and get back to my video work with the feedback you have been giving and once I have done that a bunch then hit the range and see what the ball does ;) The feeling of not hitting vicious hooks felt great.
Again thank you very much for your help!

JC

I'm still here you two goat humping idiots! In fact just got back from the lab - cruiser rockets - with the new Wilson Staff blades :) .

Looks like the new job is with Chase Bank - training in Chicago Sept 13, 14, 15 in case anyone has time for dinner - dress cute! PM me

D is in chicago..... now that would be an epic encounter. Frazier Ali.

A little bit of information
 

hey guys....great stuff! Did anyone mention that this very athletic golfer is out of balance at address and continues to stay out of balance throughout the swing? I would make a suggestion that he consider the concept of the stationary post....and the components of the pivot. Shoulders, hips, knees, feet. I think if he were centered more at address, top and finish...the ball striking might improve.....Rick :salut:

Daryl's in Chicago? Didn't know that. Is he still alive or did he pass on? Rumor has it Bubble head 12 piece took him out. (Can I be Ali? Just asking) Someone let jlcowper know that he's now been threadjacked by the greatest threadjacker of all time !

Post #14 above:salut:

GrandmasterthreadJacka's in the house, give it up.

Look him up MIkie. You only get one chance and this might be it. ...... How bout Speazzia in the informal room. Love that place. Man wish I could go....

I'm busy preparing my presentation and constructing gismo's for my video series on the participation of the "Right Forearm".

Mike, let me buy Dinner. Give me a date and I'll make the arrangements.

Looks like I'll be hiring two body guards when I'm in Chicago - you'll need to be licensed to carry firearms - interested parties can PM me. Dates and times to be determined in the next week.

Are you bringing "Bruce" and "Chad" again?

I laugh farted when I read that.......didnt understand what you meant but just keeping you up to date with things. Bruce and Chad!!!!!!

Guys fix the date, if its Speazzia and Im able I will join you. Gonna need a videographer and a two priests though. Those are my conditions. One old priest , one young priest and some shackles.

detox
 

Whew.........

Ball back teaches the hang back, shallow out, "loss of lag pressure", swing to the right, over tilting, and the hump; all to lessen the angle of attack.........at the same time, feels like the only way to make a ball start straight is to shut the face. The ball in that FO driver isn't in the proper zip code. Ball position teaches pivot........give it a minute :salut:

That's great O.B. Hope you can join us. I can get the Priests, but I don't know a videographer that will have anything to do with us. :)

S*** Happens
 

Great stuff, John. Creative, too!

Question . . .

Can you condense it into a tee shirt slogan?

:salut:

Ha!, Ill work on it LB. Given the guarantee of that alignment to produce a "hump" and a "dump", Im thinking a t-shirt with a picture of Humpty Dumpty sitting on a wall with a golf club that reads "Humpy Dumpy Had a Ball Back"

No probs D. Even with video nobody would believe it anyways. Sorta like that Bigfoot footage of yours from back in the day. That was so you in that gorilla suit. Right?

Nice bit of geometry Jt.

Thanks

Forget Size . . .
 

How 'bout . . .

Position Matters.

:laughing9

Nice! Hahaha

Thank you guys for all the help. Shot 77 yesterday and 76 today from the back tees. I am hitting the driver much better. I am hitting some pulls, pushes and some awesome shots. I feel like I can keep the driver in play which is a big improvement. A lot of the irons feel good, but i get some pushes.
I will keep working on the swing suggestions you guys provided and after I get some practice i will post the swing again.

Again thank you,

JC