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no back in the upswing

:golf:

so i think this is an important point for tgmers especially, but also for any golfer in general.

for the club and hands to move on plane they must move back up and in instantly and simultaneously, but the arms have a given length and with extensor and a stationary head and without any pulling out from the arm sockets or shoulder joints the structure and WIDTH to the body will remain in tact. when we use extensor and lift the club up and in around the stationary post the clubhead and hands only incidentally went BACK as well as they incidentally go forward as the club moves down and out down plane. I think most golfers have a perceived instinct of power to move the body back and forth. The best drill i have found to date is the feet together drill which eliminates that feeling of back and forth. so yes there is back and forward in the golf swing but i think we would all play much better focusing more on the UP AND IN AND DOWN AND OUT and less on the back and forward. rft and extensor doesn't just mean going back back back on the plane line, that is NOT tracing, not extensor. get the club up off the ground and into the air WITH extensor WHICH GIVES YOU THE WIDTH, THE BACK without doing any added back reachy motion. In the downswing as well the hips and extensor carry the hands forward incidentally as they focused on going down and out DOWN plane. when you try and jam the hands forward, trying to jam forward lean over there or trace trace trace back back back along the ground wiiiide you are RUINING the circle and the geometry that you are trying to achieve. Turn around the post, lift the club up and in and send it down and out down plane to both arms straight. no back in the upswing:happy3:

Ive admired Lynns startup and backswing for some time now and have tried to make a study of it. Ive studied every post , every video he's produced. Every time I see him I tell him what Ive got..... Im closing in , maybe. Not sure. The man has more secrets than Wikilinks.

When Im finished Ill publish here. It'll touch on:

TGMs alignments combined with motion, momentum in short. TGM's Divergent Vectors, independent arm and pivot motion, EA , RFT , Lagging Takeaway etc combined with Wild Bill Melhourne's grass whipping, Bob MacDonald's Drills , the Bertholy method , Hogan , Nelson and a good dash of Billy Casper believe it or not . All this and more.

Ive got a video where he's standing on one leg hitting shots with this beautiful arm swing and takeaway. Hogan in Mexico beautiful!

P.S anybody familiar with Bob MacDonald's "inward bend" ? Id love a passage or two on that.

just becareful of the grass whip, lagging clubhead takeaway, etc. that golf club and hands need to go UP not low along the ground

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90338)

just becareful of the grass whip, lagging clubhead takeaway, etc. that golf club and hands need to go UP not low along the ground

Yes agreed..... Arms Swing UP , Pivot turns IN. Divergent Vectors . No low down the line covering with aggregated "width" (left shoulder push away with the head swaying off the ball).

Like OB, I really enjoy watching Lynn's takeaway.

I can't remember where, but I saw a beautiful video explanation that seemed to mirror Lynn's action by Steve Elkington. He had a plane board, was setting up with the right forearm on plane, and was describing RFT. The right forearm stayed on the inclined plane, clearly moving in and up, until right forearm parallel to the ground. From there the right forearm moved more up while bending, but the right elbow never left the plane. Some gorgeous right forearm magic. I wish I could find that video again!

Kevin

Kevin, I think there was a sequence like that in his video on the short game, in case you bought it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etzwane (Post 90355)

Kevin, I think there was a sequence like that in his video on the short game, in case you bought it.

Thank yo Etzwane!

The hands go up and in instantly the pivot gets out of the way it doesn't do the the job on it's own, the forearm lifts UP instantly not back.
This is my whole point! the right forearm should not stay on the plane it's got to lift and bend off the plane instantly it doesn't stay on it while it moves back and then lifts, it goes UP and in from the very start!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevCarter (Post 90354)

keV , that ain't right forearm magic if it was done as you described, this is a crucial aspect of the golf swing if you misunderstand you're missing the geometry and the action

The Right Sided Swing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90374)

I'm sure the "Right-sided Swing " guys have a few tattered copies of TGM on their desks and at the computer monitors. Like the Hitting motion taught by TGM, TRSS emphasizes the Right Arm. However, TRSS emphasizes a "K" set-up position that is like Impact Fix to the extreme! Right arm straight pick-up, elbow stays close bends, then a bump, then extend the right elbow.

Here is a video, or two or so.

http://youtu.be/bnIi5O7kzW8

http://youtu.be/cops580TR1o

http://youtu.be/bTtEHWEZRrs

This is just an exaggerated hitting motion I believe. Feedback? :read:

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90427)

keV , that ain't right forearm magic if it was done as you described, this is a crucial aspect of the golf swing if you misunderstand your missing the geometry and the action

to ask a silly question, why?

Because the forearm should come off the plane in the startup, the hands and clubhead are on plane, THE hands move in and up. The right arm bends immediately the forearm lifts the hands up the plane immediately bending off the plane.

Maybe Kevin is describing the forearm as moving on its own plane, I've seen that image here and it has been helpful in trying to figure out the RFT.

that wouldn't be quite right either though etzwayne, the right arm bends immediately to allow the hands to go up the plane, the right forearm comes off the plane and follows no plane of its own, the only plane that matters is the one the clubhead and hands are on and the forearm must accomodate this. although it may appear to be still nearly on it in the startup, it should be coming off of it immediately.

Right Forearm Takeaway

well I searched for right forearm takeaway, and yielded basically nothing, so I'm throwing in the words "right forearm takeaway" to this thread. no threads about the right forearm takeaway on tgm forum?? not good let's get these ideas right, let's talk about the RFT this is important stuff.

I like this right forearm takeaway, the arm bends to allow the hands and clubhead to move UP AND IN on plane, and incidentally they also went back a little.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F18cr...ture=endscreen

Right Forearm vs. Right Hand Takeaway

Didn't find much in all those posts,maybe it's time for some new content

I like this explanation, by Matthew an inactive user "The right forearm is what lifts and drops the left arm (controlling secondary hinge) using the plane line as its guide as the pivot (power package transport)turns..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90447)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfdsX...eature=related

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90444)

well I searched for right forearm takeaway, and yielded basically nothing, so I'm throwing in the words "right forearm takeaway" to this thread. no threads about the right forearm takeaway on tgm forum?? not good let's get these ideas right, let's talk about the RFT this is important stuff.

A search for "right forearm pickup" gives this discussion,

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...rearm+picku p

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90444)

drop this in a google search. See if it yields anything:

"right forearm takeaway" site:www.lynnblakegolf.com

Been a while since Ive watched it but isn't the RFT covered in the Alignment Golf Video? The old indian chiefs "how" arm salute from the westerns.

Here's where Im at with RFT for what its worth. Warning this may take a lot of words.

To understand the RFT you have to isolate the motion of the Right Arm from the motion of the Pivot. They are different , they go in different directions but they are coordinated and contribute to each others final paths. Pivot turns IN , Right Elbow fans a tad and bends UP. See MacDonald drills for independent pivot and arm motion.

The other way of seeing or isolating the movement of the Right Arm from the Pivots contribution is to go to Top without a club in your hands, drop your left arm to your side while you leave your right hand and right shoulder high. Then turn your shoulder back to where they were at Address (square). Your right hand will now be somewhere out over your target line approximately. Its motion from where it starts at address to where it ends up at Top has now been isolated from the contributions of the pivot. You have zeroed out the pivots contribution. Notice how much of the IN is gone. Leaving mainly UP. BACK the third of the three dimensions is understood by everybody.

To get from address to this position at Top the right Forearm must fan a tad (nowhere near 90 degrees interestingly) and bend up. You could fan and then bend , sequenced RFT if you will. Or fan and bend at the same time , overlapped . The first describing a reverse "L" in right arm motion , the latter more of a "/" diagonal.

The number #1 pressure point is pressure point associated with the Right Elbows lifting although the Left Hand cocking is sensed at the #2pp. The #1 is also employed for EA. Making for some simplification.

You know the MacDonald drill where he sticks the handle in his belly button and turns his right hip back? That is the Pivot contributions to the backswing. It might appear to us to be a Pivot To Hands thing but it isn't in that the Pivot does its thing while the INDEPENDENT Arms do their own unique thing. The Right Arms contribution can be seen as almost a wood hatcheting like lift over the Right Shoulder . There is surprisingly little left forearm turning in reality. Those who advocate a 90 degree turn of the left forearm in startup prior to any pivot motion ... will have to undo a good portion of that 90 degree turn as they make their way to Top.

When does the pivot turn vis a vis the right arm pickup ? I personally start the pivot just a tad before the RFT. The pivot is really just a clearing of the right hip to a pre determined position. But I believe Lynn would say he gets both Pivot (right hip clear) and RFT (diagonal pickup) going at the same time. I have this on video tape somewhere.

Employing a lagging takeaway the momentum of the swing away created by the pivot (in my opinion) is then sensed and adopted by the Hands to aid in the Pickup. The momentum of the lagging takeaway easing the amount of muscular lifting necessary. Ideally you want to there to be as little muscular lifting as possible. No high shoulders or anything like that ... try to let it swing up. What active lifting there is should give way to a sort of coasting to top. Its very difficult to go the other way with your pivot when your actively lifting . Greasy , coasting and you can go two ways while loading the Lag Pressure Point at Top. Normally the Rotated Pressure Point the Knuckle at the base of the Right Index Finger assuming your going to Drag Load. This knuckle given a proper grip and wrist condition at Top is the location of the Lag Pressure Loading. The direction in which the Pickup must travel. The destination for the swung or thrown up in the air club. Like your tossing the club up against the knuckle. The pressure points are critical in all of this. Load them incorrectly and your wrist conditions are probably compromised.

If you do the above drill with split hands you can really feel the elbow bend to pull the #1pp UP while the left hands #2 (reverse #2? the heal pad of the left hand resist , feels like as if its pushing down) while the left wrist cocks.

Hands to Pivot does not mean the Hands start the backswing! The intention is for the Hands , the Pressure Points to travel the Inclined Plane to go to its target back and through, but their path is the result of two unique forces each with their own vector. This business happens during all kinds of human movement ,you turn and grab something. The mind is on the hands and their target but the pivot contributes to the path of the hands .... without any thought to it. Im not saying to actually throw your club up over your right shoulder for instance .... the intention to do so would probably end up with you actually doing it.

Doesn't Elk have a move where he throws the club over his right shoulder in feel. Thats Divergent Vectors 2-N-1 to my mind. Independent Pivot and Arm motion. Cant do this with hankies under your arm pits which would hinder the independent pivot and arm motion.

Theres great simplification to be had with this as in the end your intentions are limited to "clear the right hip and RFT". The hands actual swing path is resultant of the two vectors. Divergent Vectors. Thats all you need to do to get to top , on plane and with good wrist conditions .... assuming your loading the pressure points accordingly. Got to train the pressure points. Only then will the Hands have control over the Pivot and can thereby be said to have been "educated".

Nothings really as big as it first seems in the golf swing. The RFT can be thought to be about, what 2' high or so in terms of actual muscular lifting. Weird but simplifying. The whole dang swing isn't what it first seems to be. Got to strip it down.

There's more , much more but thats the gist of it . Any notes or thoughts from anyone?

Maybe Lynn will come in and fix a few points ...

RFT is so simple, even a Caveman...

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 90462)

Been a while since Ive watched it but isn't the RFT covered in the Alignment Golf Video? The old indian chiefs "how" arm salute from the westerns.

Here's where Im at with RFT for what its worth. Warning this may take a lot of words.

To understand the RFT you have to isolate the motion of the Right Arm from the motion of the Pivot. They are different , they go in different directions but they are coordinated and contribute to each others final paths. Pivot turns IN , Right Elbow fans a tad and bends UP. See MacDonald drills for independent pivot and arm motion.

The other way of seeing or isolating the movement of the Right Arm from the Pivots contribution is to go to Top without a club in your hands, drop your left arm to your side while you leave your right hand and right shoulder high. Then turn your shoulder back to where they were at Address (square). Your right hand will now be somewhere out over your right foot say. Its motion from where it starts at address to where it ends up at Top has now been isolated from the contributions of the pivot. You have zeroed out the pivots contribution. Notice how much of the IN is gone. Leaving mainly UP. BACK the third of the three dimensions is understood by everybody.

To get from address to this position at Top the right Forearm must fan a tad (nowhere near 90 degrees interestingly) and bend up. You could fan and then bend , sequenced RFT if you will. Or fan and bend at the same time , overlapped . The first describing a reverse "L" in right arm motion , the latter more of a "/" diagonal.

The number #1 pressure point is pressure point associated with the Right Elbows lifting although the Left Hand cocking is sensed at the #2pp. The #1 is also employed for EA. Making for some simplification.

You know the MacDonald drill where he sticks the handle in his belly button and turns back. That is the Pivot contributions to the backswing. It sounds to us like Pivot To Hands but it isn't . Its necessary . The Right Arms contribution can be seen as almost a wood chopping like lift over the Right Shoulder . There is surprisingly little forearm turning in reality.

When does the pivot turn vis a vis the right arm pickup ? I personally start the pivot just a tad before the RFT. The pivot is really just a clearing of the right hip to a pre determined position. But I believe Lynn would say he gets both Pivot (right hip clear) and RFT (diagonal pickup) going at the same time.

Employing a lagging takeaway the momentum of the swing away created by the pivot (in my opinion) is then sensed and adopted by the Hands to aid in the Pickup. The momentum of the lagging takeaway easing the amount of muscular lifting necessary. Ideally you want to there to be as little muscular lifting as possible. No high shoulders or anything like that ... try to let it swing up. What active lifting there is should give way to a sort of coasting to top. Its very difficult to go the other way with your pivot when your actively lifting . Greasy , coasting and you can go two ways while loading the Lag Pressure Point at Top. Normally the Rotated Pressure Point the Knuckle at the base of the Right Index Finger assuming your going to Drag Load. This knuckle given a proper grip and wrist condition at Top is the location of the Lag Pressure Loading. The direction in which the Pickup must travel. The destination for the swung or thrown up in the air club. Like your tossing the club up against the knuckle. The pressure points are critical in all of this. Load them incorrectly and your wrist conditions are probably compromised.

If you do the above drill with split hands you can really feel the elbow bend to pull the #1pp UP while the left hands #2 (reverse #2? the heal pad of the left hand resist , feels like as if its pushing down) while the left wrist cocks.

Hands to Pivot does not mean the Hands start the backswing!

Doesn't Elk have a move where he throws the club over his right shoulder in feel. Thats Divergent Vectors to my mind. Independent Pivot and Arm motion. Cant do this with hankies under your arm pits.

Theres great simplification to be had with this as in the end your intentions are limited to "clear the right hip, RFT". The hands actual path is resultant of the two inputs or vectors. Thats all you need to do to get to top , on plane and with good wrist conditions .... assuming your loading the pressure points accordingly. Got to train the pressure points. Only then will the Hands have control over the Pivot and can thereby said to be "educated".

Nothings really as big as it first seems. The RFT can be thought to be about what 2' high or so maybe. Weird but simplifying. The whole dang swing isn't what it first seems to be. Got to strip it down.

There's more , much more but thats the gist of it . Any notes or thoughts from anyone?

As I bend my right elbow up, stretching my left shoulder with EA, I feel my LAG push against PP# 3 and then I maintain that pressure with a hip shift and elbow straightening DOWN to China!

ICT

Quote:

Originally Posted by innercityteacher (Post 90464)

As I bend my right elbow up, stretching my left shoulder with EA, I feel my LAG push against PP# 3 and then I maintain that pressure with a hip shift and elbow straightening DOWN to China!

ICT

City, there should be "Like" button here. I can identify with what you just stated here. That pull of the left shoulder and left rib cage is a reminder of just how powerful EA is.

To My Friend Ob Left and all my friends out there IN TGM LAND

DEAR OB LEFT if i may suggest some changes to your ideas on Right forearm pickup/takeaway

Although the pivot turns and seemingly provides the inward motion, it is the Right Forearm's job to lift the hands and clubhead ON PLANE, the pivot simply clears the way to allow this to happen easier and loads up any necessary pivot power. for the full swing, you will turn with it. when you are using a non pivot stroke the forearm must still lift the club and hands up on plane. The forearm, right tricep and #3 pp will transport the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor action.

depending on the hinge action, loading action and basic stroke, the forearm will have varying degrees of fanning, for a swinger you will feel more than a tad of fanning, it is instant fanning and lifting, the hands turned on plane, per the swingers standard wrist action the #3 pp senses the gyroscope rotation immediately, it's pure fanning for the swinger. To ensure rhythm, the piston tracing and fanning must be dialed in for your particular pattern. the swinger has got a lot of fanning to do!

Sorry to be blunt, but the indian's "how" (not sure that's PC these days..) Ain't cuttin' it, there is more to it than just mimicking an indian, or cranking a lawnmower, it's all about your basic stroke being on the plane, whether it's push punch or pitch, for the swinger most likely pitch. The underhand pitch motion gives you a good feel for the proper fanning back and through to ensure rhythm.

personally i would forget about the lagging clubhead takeaway because, the motion here must be precise and upwards, not haphazardly dragging along the ground shut trying to feel a change in direction, forget about momentum in the startup, we want extensor, we want to be on plane with proper fanning and rhythm, and we want a swinging or hitting action.

forget about the divergent vectors, lift the club ON PLANE, instead of trying to mix and match vectors varying amounts to accommodate the plane.

Once again, FORGET ABOUT THE BACK(whole point of this thread), with extensor the natural structure of the arms will provide all the back you will ever need without actually going back at any point in the swing, from startup maintain extensor and lift the club UP AND IN immediately FORGET ABOUT THE BACK to top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdZ (Post 89780)

Width means maintaining the triangle (left arm radius) with extensor action.

It does not mean extending the triangle with extensor action.

Many who try for width, or 'low and slow' end up as you have described - incorrectly extending the triangle via the shoulder joint.

The macdonald drills are great but the right foream takeaway requires more precision than this, FORGET ABOUT GREAT SIMPLIFICATION for all of this, because it isn't simple. The right forearm takeaway is a precise motion based on your selected components that must have rhythm and be on plane. the plane is the boss and your loading, wrist action and hinge action are your bosses too. The only simplification is referencing your selected components and PRACTICING them on plane, as he says in 4-D-0 CONSTRUCT AN INCLINED PLANE.
Attachment 2847

FORGET SIMPLE, FORGET BACK, FORGET DIVERGENT VECTORS, FORGET LAGGING CLUBHEAD TAKEAWAY, MACDONALD DRILLS, ELK VIDEOS ETC.

THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3PP, THINK LIFTING THE RIGHT FOREARM TO COCK THE LEFT WRIST, THINK FANNING, THINK ON PLANE, UP AND IN, WITH THE SELECTED WRIST ACTION, BASIC STROKE, HINGE ACTION AND LOADING ACTION. when this motion swings or carries the clubhead and hands to the top you will uncover the magic of the right forearm, and your downstroke blackouts will be fewer and farther between.

when working through basic and acquired motion this is your best chance to really work on the right forearm takeaway and you will learn it is not such a simple thing until you have mastered the proper motion and then you can wake up out of bed and lift the club up and in on plane with extensor in a deliberate and precise manner with action

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryG (Post 90481)

City, there should be "Like" button here. I can identify with what you just stated here. That pull of the left shoulder and left rib cage is a reminder of just how powerful EA is.

Jerry G extensor stretches the left arm gently through the the right tricep. you shouldn't really feel it straining through your shoulder or your ribcage, it is a light constant pressure, it should eliminate tension and maintain the structure of the arms and their checkrein action, it is a light constant pressure maintaining the left arms length and giving indispensable control to all strokes freeing up the wrists for sharper focus on ball control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90505)

not exactly...

scary...and confusing ..

Does this have any bearing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVws0...eature=related

yes air, the bit he says about dropping the club or finding a way to separate your left arm from the shoulder at 1:15, he says "it's gonna go forward, the real problem is down" so the point of my thread here is to say it's gonna go back, the real problem here is we gotta get that club up and in on the backstroke it will go back and it will go forward, do not focus on the back and forward instead focus on the up and in and down and out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90507)

Perhaps not so scary and confusing after all..

Right Forearm Pickup Right Forearm Takeaway

Here's a little description of the right forearm pickup, right forearm takeaway for the swinger.

With a light constant pressure that is extensor action, and the right forearm in-line and on plane, the right palm should seek to rotate and lift flat to the plane immediately, the right arm bends as it fans immediately lifting and rotating the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor. This action cocks the left wrist into the backstroke, all the while the pivot is simply turning with it from the very start. It all goes together and right from the start, straight up and rotational

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90512)

Does that mean that it's more of a pick up than a fanning motion?

What about this one?

in the end the plane and the loading action are the bosses, it is fanning, pure fanning right from the start and bending lifting together it must fan and lift, this rft cannot be simplified with some random motion it fans Up the plane. war chant and walrus is fine, but why try to mix two motions like rubbing your tummy and patting your head when you can simply lift the club and hands up the plane with the right forearm.

The more input I get, the more I can check this out in the days to come. Thanks.

I'm glad you responded in the way you did whip. I don't have time at present to address your points but will in a few days. My opinion on the matter is based on common human movement. Reaching for something specifically .

I think we agree on on plane hand travel I didn't mean to imply otherwise . That is the intention given a desire for on plane hands that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 90520)

It just seems as if the RFT allows for all possible downstrokes. From the RFT, I can pause and "spin" down twirling the right hand down plane with right knee firing the hip, I can Hit to Both Arms Straight aiming at the inside quadrant, or I can freeze the RFT and Pivot down through the ball and Base Line of the Plane. All three strokes hold the intended line it seems with slight differences.

The Pivot stroke penetrates, the Hit produces a very high soft landing ball, and the "spin" produces a very high draw.

ICT

Hey ICT hows things.

Totally agree RFT for me too. It makes the pivots contribution just right, neither too much , nor too little . You know just like reaching for something. We Hands to Pivot hundreds , maybe thousands of times a day. We send our hands to their target (almost subconsciously but not quite. Try reaching for something with your eyes closed and see how our awareness of the hands becomes extreme ) , with no or very little thought to the body motion required, it just happens (under normal situations... if you had to jump to reach something you'd probably give it some thought. Like an outfielder grabbing a home run off the top of the wall, he probably thought about that jump).

In golf the Pivot's , Zone 1, contribution is critically important and must correct. Homer called it Zone 1 after all. The foundation of the swing , balance etc, the creator of golfs basic rotational forces, cf as Homer put it. But the shot at hand may not require any pivot at all , or it may require a full pivot. Also similar to reaching for things. You may have to bend over and turn your shoulder or maybe its entirely an arm motion ... it depends. Either way the brain is sending the hands to their target and the body is contributing only as much as is necessary. We're wired that way . Why not make golf similar? We do so in every other sports motion I can think of... somehow we golfers get to manipulating all kinds of weird stuff in our quest to control that crazy little white ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 90496)

DEAR OB LEFT if i may suggest some changes to your ideas on Right forearm pickup/takeaway

Please do . Im all for learning something new. Wouldn't be here otherwise.

Quote:

Although the pivot turns and seemingly provides the inward motion, it is the Right Forearm's job to lift the hands and clubhead ON PLANE, the pivot simply clears the way to allow this to happen easier and loads up any necessary pivot power. for the full swing, you will turn with it. when you are using a non pivot stroke the forearm must still lift the club and hands up on plane. The forearm, right tricep and #3 pp will transport the hands and clubhead up the plane with extensor action.

In general I think we're saying much the same thing but coming at it from different angles so to speak. The #3pp , the hands do travel up the plane . In feel and in real and most importantly in terms of our intentions. That is our intention of we RFT'ers. No exaggerated awareness of shoulder turning nor any intellectual or philosophical need to try to unite the motion of the Hands and the Pivot along one course or path. They are not travelling the same path to top. They go their own ways but meet up .... on the Turned Shoulder Plane (ideally to my mind for simplicity in Startdown but thats another story) at Top.

Ive bolded some of your words for clarity. Id say its much more than "seemingly" the pivot does provide In given a Pivot stroke.

Three Dimensional Takeaway (BACKWARDS , IN AND UP) like Three Dimensional Impact (FORWARD , DOWN and OUT) is necessitated given any inclination to the Inclined Plane . Backwards everybody sees, gets . Up is best done with the Right Forearm (Elbow bending) Magic in my opinion. No heavy lifting with the shoulders or left arm which is poorly positioned on the other side of the body to do any lifting. Try swinging slowly with just the left arm on the club to see this. The Pivot , golfs basic rotational force, can provide much if not all of the In for strokes in which there is a pivot. For strokes in which the Shoulder Turn is truly zeroed the Right Forearm must provide the Up and In as you say .

Quote:

depending on the hinge action, loading action and basic stroke, the forearm will have varying degrees of fanning, for a swinger you will feel more than a tad of fanning, it is instant fanning and lifting, the hands turned on plane, per the swingers standard wrist action the #3 pp senses the gyroscope rotation immediately, it's pure fanning for the swinger. To ensure rhythm, the piston tracing and fanning must be dialed in for your particular pattern. the swinger has got a lot of fanning to do!

Wouldn't pure right arm fanning (no bending) mean you hand no Up? Good for Single Horizontal only. What provides the Up to insure on plane motion as in Dual Horizontal the Machine.

Quote:

Sorry to be blunt, but the indian's "how" (not sure that's PC these days..) Ain't cuttin' it, there is more to it than just mimicking an indian, or cranking a lawnmower, it's all about your basic stroke being on the plane, whether it's push punch or pitch, for the swinger most likely pitch. The underhand pitch motion gives you a good feel for the proper fanning back and through to ensure rhythm.

Ya I was trying to think of another way of putting that.. an oath like right arm motion? Thats why added "in the old western movies". No offence to native americans intended.

Totally agree on it aint just one right arm motion. The how thing holds for full pivot strokes only. The right arm motion when seen in isolation (with pivot removed) changes as the pivots contribution increases or decreases. People may not see this at first and then when they do it will probably seem needlessly complex but .... we do it all day long in our daily motions. The concern for this seemingly complex mixture of unique Pivot and Arm motions will disappear when one sees the common goal that makes this ever changing business automatic ... The intention to send the hand to its target. In golf its Up the inclined plane to its position at Top. Assuming you choose to Trace you could say it includes tracing the plane line too in startup.

Quote:

personally i would forget about the lagging clubhead takeaway because, the motion here must be precise and upwards, not haphazardly dragging along the ground shut trying to feel a change in direction, forget about momentum in the startup, we want extensor, we want to be on plane with proper fanning and rhythm, and we want a swinging or hitting action.

A lagging takeaway is optional but I wouldn't discount its effectiveness. Bobby Jones, Nelson , Hogan and surprisingly Nicklaus all employed it to varying visual apparent degrees.

The True Swinger , one for whom CF alone squares the Clubface given his relaxed absolutely tension free Wrists would to my mind employ a Lagging Takeaway. Hmm wonder if Carry Back and True Swinging are mutually exclusive. I think so. Cant carry back if you the shaft is a string.

[QUTOE]
forget about the divergent vectors, lift the club ON PLANE, instead of trying to mix and match vectors varying amounts to accommodate the plane.

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Some lucky folks they don't need to think about the Divergent Vectors and Id say in the end after training with them in ideally they disappear in terms of our attention. Its sort of a" hey look at this and then forget it deal". But for the golfer who's exaggerated Shoulder Turn consciousness takes him forever under plane on the way back or the for the guy who over swivels going back , or the guy who has trouble getting his club on plane at Top , or for the guy who is just trying to figure out what the right arm actually has to do for the shot at hand ... the Divergent Vectors are the course of study.

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Once again, FORGET ABOUT THE BACK(whole point of this thread), with extensor the natural structure of the arms will provide all the back you will ever need without actually going back at any point in the swing, from startup maintain extensor and lift the club UP AND IN immediately FORGET ABOUT THE BACK to top.

Do mean forget about Back as a product of Arm Motion? That Id agree with to the extent that most guys over do it . Theres got to be some Back in their, coming from something somewhere. Do mean the Pivot provides the Back?

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I agree with everything you say after "THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3.... " And believe that for most golfers they should think about all you have said to forget ... You're just lucky to have not suffered like most when learning this game. If you talked to most pros about Divergent Vectors they'd look at you with a "man your over thinking this thing" look. But that doesn't mean its not the truth on the matter . So Id say look at if you need to and most of us do need to .......then when you mastered you Backswing let it sink into the background by forgetting about it.

Im way older than you Whip. I was a 3 cap when I was 16 thats a long time ago now. I'm trying to get it back to the plus side of things again this year and asked Lynn a few weeks ago what I should work on to get there.. His reply " MacDonald drills and the computer". He knows my swing , we've done a lot of work on plane of the left wrist cock, Wrist conditions, independent Arm and Pivot motion (human movement 101) and freeing up my swingers flail (no hold off unless I want it) . I benefitted from thinking about this stuff profoundly. Im approaching the forget it stage and am thrilled about it.

Although the right arm motion of MacDonald drill number 5 ( Mambo #5 ) is not on plane if you added drill 11's pivot it would be. That is the point ... independent arm and pivot motion. They are very different motions but they combine to produce the on plane right hand travel .. that ideally is your intention your focus. You don't focus on the different motions or try to pickup the club straight over your right shoulder like in the Elk drill . When you reach for the glass on the right shoulder high shelf your intention is to send the hand to the glass! You don't think about sending it a few feet short of the glass! This is maybe something Elk knows . But the drill still stands the arm does not contribute 100% of the hands path for pivot strokes.

Uh I don't want to speak ill of any GSED's but the intention to Wrist Throw down the Incline Plane is the correct intention in Release but some have said to "throw it straight down into the ground". That aint quite right. Its the downswings version of the above discussion. Intentions and arm motions when seen in isolation are not to be confused.

Im writing quickly hope I made some sense and love your swing in that video. Like i said its the sort of thing where we're sort of ending up in the same place but describing our different takes on the way to get there maybe.