vj: Your thoughts on developing a great short game?
 

vj: I get the feeling that you are a bit of a Stan Utley short game guru on the quiet :D . Your putting advice has transformed my performance with the short stick and now I want to do the same thing with my short game. My short game is reasonable but this is down to lots of disorganised practice. I would like an insight how an organised professional golfer goes about training a great short game. I would like to see a specific programme of drills and tasks that develop distance control and touch and feel. I have read up a little on Stan Utley and see short game shots as mini full swing where I have the same kind of ball position as I do on full shots , swing on plane and plane is boss . Hit with a flat left wrist and have lag. This is for chips and pitches . I tend to hit the ball on line OK but my distance control is not up to what I want it to be. I am looking for a professional short game training regime to follow so that my practice is more organised and efficient. At the moment I just turn up on the course in the evenings and drop about 15 ProVs down in different situations or from the same spot and hit them towards the pin. The results are good if I am with it but if I am out of sorts the results can be erratic. I am looking for something a little more organised.vj, Yoda,Brian and others :I would very much like your thoughts on the points raised.

Great Topic!
 

This is a fantastic question IMO. We talk all this swing stuff which is great. But let's figure out how to get it in the hole.

Thanks for getting this one started.

:D

Let's look at the shots around the green. Setting into impact fix and moving number 1 (the right forearm back and through) is the hitting chip. Setting into impact fix and using pivot power (number 4) is the swinging chip. Different hinges can be used to control the layback of the face which in turn will gives us different trajectories and travel.

Now let's look at the cut-shot and the lob shot. Two separate shots outsided the chip or basic pitch which can be used for exaggerating high shots. The trouble is these high shots are needed more and more around modern day greens.

So work on these four shots independently. Separately on different days. Better yet someone pick a shot from the above and let's define them out component by component so our practice can be even more intense.

--------------------------------------
By the way I teach the full swing all day long. At the very end of my playig mini's I Monday qualified for a tour event. "Take the blinders off" I told myself. "Let's really watch these guys and see what their ball is doing different than yours." I had played with this caliber player before but more as a performer than a researcher. So I sat back and watched and what I saw were nice "tight swings" with lower, boring ball flights in great balance. What I saw from my swing was a swing which lacked extensor action, a high ball flight, and good balance. So that started my journey to G.O.L.F.

I will do all I can to take Homer's work and put it into the short game.

Just a thought combining hue, VJ and Pelz (short game handicap from Pelz SGB):

How about defining a TGM shortgame protocol that also - in a way - determines TGM shortgame handicap?

Might basically be a list of different PP's, hinges & loadings combinations from a number of distances. Make up shots to cover the most common 75% of all shortgame shots you'll have in your life. The resulting score (as in Pels SGB) would be a TGM shortgame handicap.

Example:

1. Hit 10 #3PP "hit" chipshots from 15 ft. Get a score as in Pelz SGB.
2. Hit 10 #4PP "swing" chipshots from 25 ft. Get a score as in Pelz SGB.
3. Hit 10 ...... from 20 ft over a bunker to a tight pin
etc

Now if you are able to make up & down (i.e. within 3 ft) on some 50% of those shots you should have a a scratch TGM shortgame hcp. Or something like that. Must re-read Pelz to look up some numbers.

Ask me and its a brilliant idea.

Now tear me apart 8)

VJ,

Thanks. Could we start with the Hitting Chip and Pitch? Particularly as it relates to distance control?

Thanks!

B

I would love to see a video demonstration of the shots vj describes on the "LBG Classic Movies" section.

I'll line up eagerly at second and hope for a lob shot discussion :)

My advice....

learn to SWING chips/pitches first focussing on that karate chop motion into the back of the ball and making sure you hit DOWN.

Master than, then i'd suggest moving on to a hitting type chip/pitch.

I'll see if i can copy/paste the chipping lesson i gave someone through a PM a while ago.

Jim : Do you see the swinging chip as a pivot motion and the hitting chip as a zero pivot motion hand and arm shot?

Jim,
I wish I had kept the PMs you sent me awhile back. I know I started with the swingers pitching motion for awhile. When I started see good results and gained in confidence, I switched to a hitters motion (right forarm back and through) The results have been great, I get up and down much more often and have alot better distance control in chipping. This I contribute to using extensor action to control distance and also the addition of two new eidolon wedges. Thanks again for the great tips Jim.

:D

THE HITTING CHIP

At address pre-select the amount of shaft lean for the given shot. For instance the higher the trajectory the less the lean, the lower the trajectory the more the lean.

So balance and ball position are set.

The right wrist should be bent and the left wrist flat at adjusted address. So you will begin from impact fix to minimize moving parts and to prevent you from needing or just using a float load.

From here the right elbow simply bends moving the lever assemblies away (back up and in) and then utilizing an arm throw (10-20-0) the right elbow pushes the lever assemblies down into impact. A true hitter's chip.

The right arm pitch is created again by controlling the lean of the shaft at address and opening the face. A pitch goes higher than a chip so less lean should be utilized at address. From here, for higher pitches around the green the face and the shaft must be manipulated to higher trajectory.

:D

THE LOB SHOT

To get the most of this we must look at 2-C-2. A "Cut shot" is any stroke using vertical hinging through impact regardless of of plane line or the preceeding wrist action. H. Kelley

10-5-D is the one I utilize more often than not. In this way I can trace a plane line which is outside in to the target line and employ a little reverse roll.

So stand open-open with the clubface at the target and swing out to in (Left) utilizing a little reverse roll and you have the cut shot.

The lob comes from ball position. For the lob use the above cut shot procedure but have the ball positioned at low point (opposite your left shoulder.) With the ball positioned here the clubhead will be moving level or parallel to the ground which will in turn take the compression off the ball.

Therefore, the cut shot and the lob shot are the same with exception of ball positioning.

vj: In putting you suggested practicing the short ones and long lag putts. I have changed my putting practice to this and the results have been very good. In the short game do you have any set distances that you feel you should practice ?

:D

Hue,

2 to 4 feet, a length they will all go in and 50 or 60 feet, a length you don't expect them to go in.

That is putts. What about chips and short game shots?

vj, can you do some of the swinging pitches?

:(

Before we get into swinging pitches and chips I need to make sure I made a very important point concerning the hitting pitch and chip. Mr. Kelley wanted us all to learn to straighten the right arm with wrist bend and every angle of wrist bend available. In other words, learn to straighten your right arm with every degree of wrist bend. This will give you the trajectory control necessary for the shot to suit your eye.


THE SWINGING PITCH

Well guys we are using number 4 for sure instead of number 1. That is the major difference. You are no longer using right arm thrust to move the lever assemblies, you are now using number 4.

The single barrel swinging pitch could be described as simply keeping your chest turning, although the chest is not number 4. A great hint here is keeping your eyes on the ball the entire flight, by doing so you will take number 4 and let centrifugal force pull the left arm and clubshaft in line without any other use of accumulators purposefully. So for the single barrel pitch keep your eyes on the flight of the ball the ENTIRE time and keep that pivot moving.

A double barrel pitch will look the same with exception to having some cocking and uncocking of the left wrist during the stroke itself. so now you are taking the club away, setting an angle between the left arm and clubshaft, swinging down and allow the left wrist to uncock under (centrifugal force will do this) and keeping your eyes on the ball. Like Ben says, what you load is what you dump.

Rember loading is not simply creating an angle, load comes from the clubhead resisting the change of direction which your pivot creates. So simply swing the club up, set an angle, change directions, and keep your eye on the ball the entire time for the the double barrel pitch.

The third accumulator of power is how you place the club in your left hand. Essentially the double barrel pitch is the same as the triple barrel pitch if the club is held under the heel pad of the hand creating that wonderful flying wedge.

Single- No wrist cock and keeping your eye on the ball the entire time, keeping your chest moving, and an absence of right arm participation. The club will lie in the palm of the left hand for true single barrel pitch or chip.

Double- Wrist cock and keeping your eye on the ball the entire time, keeping your chest moving, and an absence of right arm participation. The club will lie in the palm of the left hand for true single barrel pitch or chip.

Triple- Wrist cock and keeping your eye on the ball the entire time, keeping your chest moving, and an adsence of right arm participation. The club will lie under the heel pad of the left hand for true triple barrel pitches.

VJ,

When using the 3 Barrel Swinging Procedure, do you go to FULLY UNCOCKED with #2? Also, do you keep your grip pressure light?

Regards,

Bucket

vj: Some people recommend using a variety of different clubs for shots around the green others prefer using one club (SW or LW) and getting very familiar with it . Which camp do you fall into and why ?

:shock:

To the best of my knowledge, #2 should always go through cocked, level, and uncocked. So the answer is yes.

Hue,

Pitching wedge, sand wedge, and lob wedge should be used 90% of the time. I don't recommend doing a whole lot with the eight and nine with exception of 40 foot and above running chip shots or greens with a lot of contour at that distance. Why?

Because you must learn that trajectory, not spin, is what makes you a great short game player. hitting the same trajectory shot all the time by mixing clubs does not teach the FLW all it wants to know.

Simple...But Not Obvious
 

A simple truth not often considered. Thanks, VJ!

tossing a ball underhanded 8)

Let me see if I got this. Trajectory is based on the amount of shaft lean. Then with FLW at impact position, that would define your ball position (i.e. more aft to accomodate more lean, more forward to accomodate less lean)

Could you use the amount of bending in the right wrist to determine the trajectory? More for lower shots, less for higher shots. That allow one to adjust that variable, and the others (ball position, shaft lean, etc) before you address the ball.

I got into a discussion with an AI on another forum about this. He had had some short game lessons with Stan Utley and said Stan did not like the ball position to be moved around in the stance as this had an effect on the plane of the stroke leading to other adjustments needed to being made. He altered the trajectory by the degree of bend in the right wrist at impact rather than altering ball position.

More. This is from the discussion mentioned on Bombsquadgolf

http://www.bombsquadgolf.com/invboar...23458&st=0

"Hue...sorry! When I had my lesson with Stan he advocated using one club for all short game shots. He used a Ping 60 deg LW. He liked it because of the bounce configuration. His distance control was based on feel. The lesson I had was concerning all short game shots up to 100 yards.

For pitch and chip shots where he wanted to change trajectory he would manipulate his left wrist position at impact. Applying it to The Golfing Machine, Stan would perform varying degrees of angular hinging as this will alter trajectory."


"Interestingly, Stan controlled trajectory by varying the left wrist position at impact. This is different from angular hinging. For his cut shot, he set up very square and performed the above motion. For all his shots, the ball was not moved around much. He typically utilized a static ball position."

On his bunker play

"Hue...Yes he did. Stan, like mostly all shots, played from a very square alignment position. Stan attacked on a very shallow angle of attack which was primarily setup by the width of his stance and low hand address position. His weight distribution was approximately 60 percent of his weight on his left. Stan used his Ping Eye 2 - 58 deg sand wedge. This particular SW has 13 degrees of bounce and a tour grind with heel and toe relief.

Stan did not loft the clubface like advocated today. The ball position was neutral to forward. To get a feel of how began his backswing, address a ball. Now hinge the club so that the clubshaft is vertical directly in front of you..do not let the arms swing back. Now, allow the pivot to provide the rotational motion. The feeling is that your hands are "staying at home" while the club is getting vertical by virtue of the hinging wrists. When Stan performs the shot there is a definite "thud" of the bounce being properly utilized. Like all shots, he maintains a planal relationship.

As for controlling distance, Stan did not have a scientific approach. His experience dictated the proper length of the swing for the appropriate distance."

Stan's lob shot

"Concerning the lob shot, Stan would actually set in a slight cup at address. He would actually set the shaft rearward leaning which has the effect of lofting the clubface. He would then maintain that wrist relationship throughout the motion. As for the address, he setup so that he had a very shallow angle of attack. He would make use of the reduced bounce in the heel of the sole."

Re: Simple...But Not Obvious
 

In Tom Watson's book about the short game, he says that he does not like spin because...the amount and effect of spin is less predictable than trajectory control.

VJ:
Great info on swinging short shots. I don't believe I have read anyone write about rotation when describing a chipping and pitching motion on these forums.

Unfortunately, I have ingrained a steering motion after practicing thousands of repetitions of 12-5-1 and 12-5-2. Are you familiar with Brian Manzella's Up the Wall, Down the Wall, Swing Left of the Wall Swing? This works great with full shots. I am wondering if your method of constantly rotating the chest is the same as swinging left.

DDL,

I don't know if it is the same as swinging left or not. With an open alignment 10-8-B address you would swing more left than you would with a square alignment 10-9-A. As a player I don't get the sensation of swinging left though.

I am not famaliar with the up the wall, down the wall, manzella drill. I would love to know more about it. So through it on.

:D

Hue,

I believe that your utley lesson in TGM terms is this:

1. use an extreme sweep load where the wrists set immediately without much arm motion.
2. Turn your pivot (chest, belly button, Accumulator #4) through the ball.
3. Ball postion at or near low point depending on height needed.
4. For manipulation of the clubface to alter trajectory during the takeaway the left hand can swivel as the swinger would on the start up or it can not swivel as the hitter would on the start up.
5. utlize a two barrel stroke with #2 and #4.


I would love to know if this is close. It is one helluva way to play your pitches around the green.

I realize this thread is a few months old, but I was reading it and wondering if VJ, you could explain a bit more the "hitting pitch" and how the motion differs from the hitting chip. I feel like I have the hitting chip down pretty well but the pitch is still a bit of a mystery. Thanks for all the helpful info.

Accumulators and Stage two basically.

That is the difference between the hitting chip and the hitting pitch. During the chip and pitch you will use #1 as the engine of the stroke. For the pitch add some #2 and swing the forearms parallel to the ground (stage two) and you will have the hitting pitch. The hitting motion already has an angled hinge built into it so you should be in business.

In summary the difference in the two is the # of accumulators being used and the distance you swing your arms.

VJ, thanks for the helpful explanation and clarification. Much appreciated.

Magic of the Right Forearm
 

Your thoughts on developing a great short game? Use the right Forearm.

Hit-Swing-use your hinges, experiment with different power accumulators, one barrell-two barrell-three barrell.....................Utilize ball position as it relates to low point to control trajectory........

The Videos are coming.......

VJ....we have discussed the shots a lot, but I have not seen any methods to practise them.

What are the best drills and games to hone a good short game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vj
...trajectory, not spin, is what makes you a great short game player.

A simple truth not often considered. Thanks, VJ!
__________________
Yoda



VJ and Yoda, your thoughts please. I agree with trajectory as well which is why I use several clubs for chipping. You have a different trajectory with each and every club. No?

What happened to those videos?

VJ / Yoda Videos
 

They will be the next items offered in our Pro Shop. I'll get'em out to Bagger, he'll do his magic, and they should be up before month's end. :happy3:

End of Sept?:clock: