starting down for swingers

[EdZ]

Hi folks,
My first post. I am a serious low handicap golfer finally looking to take my game to the next level and get back to being a competitive golfer. i have had lots of lessons from distinguished teachers but only recently have found my way working with an authorized Golfing Machine instructor. I do have one question about which I am not sure I have found an answer. From the top/end to start the downswing as a swinger I of course bump the left hip and sit down and tilt simultaneously. I don't do anything with my arms. My right shoulder drops on plane and begins to point along the plane line. so far so good. What I don't get is the connection between this 'move' which seems right and two other ideas that don't seem compatible with it. The first is the idea of a quick move to start the downswing which appears both in TGM and in Lynn Blake's video. The second and related idea is that the right shoulder creates a flywheel movement which helps the inert left arm separate from PP#4 and releases the associated power accumulator. I think of a flywheel as an outward motion, yet the right shoulder motion i am taught is both slow and down. I need some clarification including whether these two conceptions which seem conflicting to me are in fact compatible.

Thanks,
Jules

As mentioned, it is the loading of PP#4 that the quick move creates because the lower body is starting the downswing as the upper body is still going back.

To get the feel of really 'throwing' the arms off the chest, make some swings focusing on the right shoulder moving aggressivly toward the ball, while having 'rag limp' arms.

You can simulate the feel of PP#4 loading on the horizontal plane, throwing a frisbee. You can get a great feel for it if you have someone hold your hand as you try to turn back through/throw, even better to do this with a club and have someone pull the club at halfway down. Stretch bands on the horizontal plane work great as well.


Another thing to keep in mind is that the more you have your weight fully on the left leg before the hips turn, the more fully you can load #4 (or at least it sure feels that way in my case).

[JulesC]

remaining a bit puzzled. Here's why. I am not worried about extent of axis tilt or what creates it, or whether the right shoulder moves downplane as a result of shift to left, a pivot or initiated prior to both. My concern is a bit different. First, I don't understand the invocation in TGM that the movement of the right shoulder for the swinger is quick which is the opposite of what it is for a hitter, which is slow. Secondly, it is supposed to be a quick/flywheel kind of action that throws the club out ultimately by blasting the left arm off the chest, etc. I don't see this movement as of a piece with moving the right shoulder down the plane. the flywheel motion seems to me to me to have an outward vector not a downward one. So these two features of the conventional wisdom of the TGM as well as LB's characterization of teh right shoulder differences in swinging and hitting seem at odds with the thought that however initiated the right shoulder moves slowly and down on to the plane-- which is the image LB uses when he describes the right shoulder relationship to the plane line through the use of the rifle illustration.

As I said I am analytical to a fault no doubt and I can't move on without some clarification of whether these thoughts are compatible or not; and if not, which is the better understanding of TGM

Thanks again,
Jules

[EdZ]

remaining a bit puzzled. Here's why. I am not worried about extent of axis tilt or what creates it, or whether the right shoulder moves downplane as a result of shift to left, a pivot or initiated prior to both. My concern is a bit different. First, I don't understand the invocation in TGM that the movement of the right shoulder for the swinger is quick which is the opposite of what it is for a hitter, which is slow. Secondly, it is supposed to be a quick/flywheel kind of action that throws the club out ultimately by blasting the left arm off the chest, etc. I don't see this movement as of a piece with moving the right shoulder down the plane. the flywheel motion seems to me to me to have an outward vector not a downward one. So these two features of the conventional wisdom of the TGM as well as LB's characterization of teh right shoulder differences in swinging and hitting seem at odds with the thought that however initiated the right shoulder moves slowly and down on to the plane-- which is the image LB uses when he describes the right shoulder relationship to the plane line through the use of the rifle illustration.

As I said I am analytical to a fault no doubt and I can't move on without some clarification of whether these thoughts are compatible or not; and if not, which is the better understanding of TGM

Thanks again,
Jules

Think of the flywheel as a 'pulling' force, the torso pulling the left arm (pressure point #4, the left arm/chest connection). It is the primary force for a swinger.

It isn't a purely horizontal 'spin' like a frisbee, because you are operating on an angled plane (roof).

The right shoulder going down plane is what keeps the force on that angled plane, rather than spinning on a horizontal plane (which is what most high handicap folks do, an over the top, off plane, spin)

[12 piece bucket]

Ogrady was one of Homer's most fervent pupils (although he maintains TGM has tragic flaws) Speaking of controversies...the right shoulder business will get some people fired up! DG, correct me if I am wrong but TT felt that lowering the right shoulder would cause the axis of the spine to tilt and that it would clear the right hip as an effect. But the general TGM consensus is that shifting the hips laterally will tilt the axis of the spine and clear the right hip. Like many I have hit thousands of balls toying with this stuff. Like everything else you find what works for you and try to describe what you think you are doing as close to what you are actually doing. To this end TGM is without peer. Having said that this is what I think: I think that the hips initiate, but I feel as though my right shoulder comes hurtling down the face of the plane. When I think hips I hit it crap...when I think right shoulder I hit it well. Looking at my swing on video there is no doubt that my lower half moves first. In this pic I was focused on two things from a feel point of few. Extensor action and my right shoulder moving assertively down plane at the ball. The EA was there but as I mentioned in another post my right arm straightened a bit prematurely and I hit a solid pull-draw (carried about 20 yards shorter than usual due to the slighly closed face...but ran out nicely!)

I do not want to start another what tilts the axis war, or what starts the downswing but rather mention that the most enduring swing thought that I have ever had (other than "Don't choke you bastard!")is "Drive the right shoulder down until you hit dirt...then drive some more...you bastard!"My axis tilts, the right hip issue the right shoulder and elbow an invitation to proceed. Passing point: Getting my head more centered at address helped a lot. I used to set up with my head hanging over my right knee. This would result in too much axis tilt.

Nice post Herman!

And . . . pretty sexy picture there too big boyeeee! Can you put up the whole sequence?

To your point . . . there are TWO was that one could tilt one's tea cup . . . . get the spine leaning via moving the head BACK (right shoulder would have a down component and not enough OUT) . . . or tilt the spiney spine via the HIPS going forward . . . (I do . . . spin shoulders THEN tilt back . . . no good). Now you said you hit a pull draw b/c you ran outta right arm . . . why do you think you done that thare? There is a link to lag pressure, club shaft and club face control (right arm control as well) via the pivot train.

I like your lines pretty good here . . . right leg straighty . . . left knee still bent nicely . . . shoulder ain't spinnin' early . . . pretty good bossmagnus!

For a compare to "perfection" . . . .

You is . . . slightly less left knee bendy . . . slightly more tilty at this point . . . and Hogan is swinging a driver here too . . . Sooooooo . . . . IF and I say IF . . . you wanna change things a bit . . . more closed coming down . . . more knee bend left knee which translates in to more hip slant . . . which would translate in to more lag and a sharper angle of attack . . . and less face pullieeez.

Also . . . from DTL . . . How does the face look? Can't quite tell here . . .but could be slightly shutty? that could result in your pull draw pretty quick too.

but all that being said . . . you look pretty HAWT at this point. Me likey. Let's see the the whole thang.







Come back . . .

[BerntR]

Off topic perhaps....

Interesting to study tigers position right there. It looks like he uses both feet to turn his hips - to a larger extent than the two others. His body seems to be working in three planes at the same time it seems: Shifting weight forward, rotating the hips on a flat-inclined plane and rotatin the shoulders on a steep plane. Some very advanced pivot work going on in that body.

[Delaware Golf]

I thought Mudd worked with O'Grady?

Jodie worked with both...first with Tom Tomasello then with Mac...I have Jodie on video going through his swing with Tom in Tom's Myrtle Beach studio. Jodie was totally against using the hips to start the downswing.

It appears to me a lot golfers try to interpret TGM through Hogan's swing and instruction, I believe Homer said he used Sam Snead's book (How to Play Golf) and Hogan's book (Power Golf) for the pictures not the written instruction, Homer believed most of what was written was incorrect.

I'll listen to Tom Tomasello's instruction about TGM any day...I don't know of anybody who had as much detailed knowledge of Homer's work as Tom Tomasello...especially the Hundred of hours of audio tape that Tommy had with Homer, I got to believe Tommy went through the WHOLE book with Homer (just like he went through the whole book with his students)...even the 7th edition revisions.

DG

[JulesC]

Thanks. very helpful. Still there is the issue of whether in fact the first move of the right shoulder is 'quick' or rather that it does not have to be slow (as it must be for the hitter). And the first direction the right shoulder takes (as a result of the left hip bump) is down and if that is right it is not a flywheel action of any sort, or so it seems to me. The flywheel action occurs as a result of the pivot action I take it and that comes after the weight shift. So it seems to me there are two moves that the right shoulder makes -- one in response to the hip bump (right shoulder down, also causing the axis tilt); the second is the flywheel as a result of the pivot/rotation. So even if the flywheel is quick motion it does not happen first. The right shoulder drops on plane first and does not spin -- though I recall seeing Lynn Blake referring the right shoulder spinning at the start of the downswing (in a swinger). I thought I saw that in one of his videos and I recall reading in TGM that the right shoulder moves quickly in a swinger at the start of the downswing; and that is the source of my confusion. For it seems to me that if the downswing starts from the ground up, the first move of the right shoulder is down the plane; and only then can there be any 'spinning' at all.
Am I mistaken? I am open to learning that I have this all wrong.
I am one of those golfers who isn't happy just having good swings; I have to feel I have good swings for the right reason; and I have to understand that I am doing it correctly. I am sure that this is a minority view as for most people good shots are reward enough. I wish I had more good shots of course, but I crave full understanding (or as close as I can get)

[Bagger Lance]

Jules,

Try the search function. There's a lot of gold nuggets here.
Here's a sample:
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=877&
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=5955&
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=2797&
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=2249&

[EdZ]

Take a look at Ricky Fowler for the 'quick' move, and the lag that results.

Very Hogan like IMO, perhaps one of the few ever on tour to swing like him.

The moves are one in the same, right shoulder down plane, the change of direction loading PP#4, the quicker the change, the more #4 is loaded.

[okie]

Nice post Herman!

And . . . pretty sexy picture there too big boyeeee! Can you put up the whole sequence?

To your point . . . there are TWO was that one could tilt one's tea cup . . . . get the spine leaning via moving the head BACK (right shoulder would have a down component and not enough OUT) . . . or tilt the spiney spine via the HIPS going forward . . . (I do . . . spin shoulders THEN tilt back . . . no good). Now you said you hit a pull draw b/c you ran outta right arm . . . why do you think you done that thare? There is a link to lag pressure, club shaft and club face control (right arm control as well) via the pivot train.

I like your lines pretty good here . . . right leg straighty . . . left knee still bent nicely . . . shoulder ain't spinnin' early . . . pretty good bossmagnus!

For a compare to "perfection" . . . .

You is . . . slightly less left knee bendy . . . slightly more tilty at this point . . . and Hogan is swinging a driver here too . . . Sooooooo . . . . IF and I say IF . . . you wanna change things a bit . . . more closed coming down . . . more knee bend left knee which translates in to more hip slant . . . which would translate in to more lag and a sharper angle of attack . . . and less face pullieeez.

Also . . . from DTL . . . How does the face look? Can't quite tell here . . .but could be slightly shutty? that could result in your pull draw pretty quick too.

but all that being said . . . you look pretty HAWT at this point. Me likey. Let's see the the whole thang.







Come back . . .

After what you did to that poor goat?!! Thanks for the analysis. An old dude comes up to me one day and says "I like your swing. Can I take a few pics?" Ordinarily that is enough to thrown down and go to fighting, but he had this high tech looking camera. Long story short he took a few pics. He sent me a bunch of proof sheets. I have not gone through them all. I do not think there are many more of this particular shot.

I agree with what you say. Face is a little shutty. Also what is happening here is that I am losing my spine angle a bit. I started off a little slumped (shoulder turn was too steep)so I flattened my approach by standing up and laying the shaft down. Solution: better posture with more knee bend. I still think that my major fault here is essentially a pivot stall. My right shoulder stops the right elbow straightens, thankfully not too soon as to cause a radical flattening of the right wrist When we thaw out here I will put up grainier before and after shots. My impact alignments have improved.