advantages/disadvantages of being a full roll hitter? EDITED

[YodasLuke]

Yoda'sLuke...i couldn't tell you.

I use the stroke that manzella taught me and Yoda told him that it was a full roll hitting procedure.

So i'm going off that assumption..maybe im wrong

Manzella is a great guy and is smart as a whip. I spent a little time with him when he came to my facility. I'm sure he has you on the right track for what your swing or hit requires. You may have been loading for vertical. As a result he may have given you a horizontal feel, just to get angled. Brian would know much better than me, because he's seen you.

Horizontal hinging has such a different rythm, I'd never be able to apply it in a hit. I was originally taught to be the opposite of that before I met Yoda. I was taught to be a swinger with angled hinging. It had terrible consequences. I'm going to ask Yoda what your misses would be, although I have a really good idea.

[Anonymous]

Horizontal hinging and standard wrist action are both natural body moves...angled hinging and single wrist action are manipulated per 7-19-1....

[Yoda]

Horizontal hinging has such a different rhythm, I'd never be able to apply it in a hit. I was originally taught to be the opposite of that before I met Yoda. I was taught to be a swinger with angled hinging. It had terrible consequences.

[Bold by Yoda.]

Horizontal Hinging -- the Vertical-to-the-Ground Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and its consequent Closing Only Motion of the Clubface -- is the natural consequence of Centrifugal Force. Swingers should remember this and not try to 'fight City Hall' unless absolutely necessary.

It is not just a matter of "Oh, I did Horizontal Hinging on that one, now I'll do Angled Hinging on this one." According to taped lecture of the late Homer Kelley, a golf club moving at 100 MPH generates 107 pounds of Centrifugal Pull during the Release Interval. And that Pull is doing everything it possibly can to align the Clubface -- indeed, the entire Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) -- for Horizontal Hinging. Attempting to override Centrifugal Force and make the Club do one thing when it wants to do another, is the recipe for inconsistency -- if not disaster -- on the links.

The same is true of the simultaneous Close-and-Layback of Angled Hinging. This Vertical-to-the-Plane Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface is the natural consequence of the Drive-out of Muscular Thrust. Attempting to make the Clubface Close Only (Horizontal Hinging) when the Driving Thrust is making it Lay Back is also to thumb one's nose at the Laws of Force and Motion. You can get away with such arrogance some of the time, but sooner or later you will learn the hard way...

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature!

[EdZ]

There may be compensations, or rather "counter actions" in a full roll hitting procedure, but they are indeed interesting ones.

It is a pattern in which physics and geometry counter each other - compliment each other - well. All based on the initial 'fighting' of the opening clubface, of physics. In an interesting 'twist' to the equation, you can get to nearly a 'reverse roll feel' and a Trevino like impact, but from the inside - given a fair amount of axis tilt.

"without rotation, it feels like an inside out cut shot" - Ben Doyle

[Trig]

I'm a hitter (pretty sure) who uses a full roll (horizontal hinge), pretty sure my release is somewhere around the snap but might not be maximum delay but you can tell on video it is a very late release.

So can anyone tell me what the advantages/disadvantages are to this type of stroke? I'm kinda curious to see if you guys can tell me (without me telling you) my strong/weak points and if it correlates to this stroke

thanks

jim

Jim,

I was doing exactly what you are doing. Trying to hit with a horizontal hinge. My misses were smothered pull-hooks. Since going to the no-roll / half-roll feel of angled hinging, I no longer hit that ugly shot.

[jim_0068]

Who knows LOL

I'm not really concerned about what procedure i use, i just know that what i do works and is consistent about 90% of the time.

Maybe i'm switting lol

Also i RARELY EVER hit a hook, EVER. My normal miss is a small fade or just a dead pull from either a bad pivot or a clubface issue.

I think if i ever hit a real hook i'd about poop myself LOL

Only thing i focus on is a bent right wrist, a flat left wrist, hitting the inside corner of the ball, and having good balance. If i do all of those ball goes DEAD STRAIGHT.

[MizunoJoe]

Jim,

If you hit the inside of the ball, you can't roll the Left Wrist fast enough to make the ball start left. That's why your Horizontal Hinge Hit works so well. While there is so much objection to Hor Hinging in a Hitting procedure because it's a manipulation, I consider a Hitting procedure to be a manipulation in and of itself, because it overrides CF - talk about messing with Mother Nature. In fact, ANY stroke other than a Pure Swing, uses manipulation.

[jim_0068]

Makes sense to MizunoJoe....only time i get into trouble is when i hit the back of the ball and am not "setting up" for the fade. Then i get a pull or pull hook

[YodasLuke]

Jim,

If you hit the inside of the ball, you can't roll the Left Wrist fast enough to make the ball start left. That's why your Horizontal Hinge Hit works so well. While there is so much objection to Hor Hinging in a Hitting procedure because it's a manipulation, I consider a Hitting procedure to be a manipulation in and of itself, because it overrides CF - talk about messing with Mother Nature. In fact, ANY stroke other than a Pure Swing, uses manipulation.

I don't remember Homer calling hitting a manipulated stroke, given that pushing or pulling could propell the club.

[MizunoJoe]

I can't find where "manipulation" is defined in the book. The word is not in the index.