The question is; When making a change or addition should the player focus attention on a single component, or can multiple components receive simultaneous attention over the period of mastering the ideal for each?
Bagger
Quick Answer: It's the player's choice
Rambling Answer:
It's the player's choice to focus on single or multiple components, I would say that both are very valid options. My preference is a single item- and then be aware of the changes that take place associated with that item, as those are always important to be aware of, notice, and use that new information in whatever way is helpful and necessary to implement that single item. And indeed, those changes that take place or must take place when you change the single component may flow over to other components but I would still consider that changing one component and noticing related changes as a result of it. That's usually enough to keep my mind busy. But I would just say that as of now, in my mind, it's definitely the player's option to determine what he/she can handle mentally and what seems "right" at the time, in regards to focusing on single or multiple components. If your changing multiple components at the same time, and then there are alot of related feels/changes association with each component change, it can get large quickly! Much like 3 components x 3 associated feels for each component x 3 related movments associated with each component change= 27 things to cover or be aware of.
I do agree that feels can and do change slightly, and that 'getting used to' a feel may alter the spectrum (buffer) of percieved changes/differences in the future. That said, I agree with Homer that one uses "feel" to reproduce, if nothing else by the ability to notice change, to notice 'being off track', more than 'being on track'.
Perspective obviously is a huge factor, where you are coming from influences how you get to where you are going. Certainly the flat vs upright changes would feel different depending on which direction you are going, just as in the classic example of placing one hand in hot water, one in cold and then moving both to warm water.
Feel may be relative, but it is critical to the feedback loop in learning.
EdZ,
Thanks for the reply- as that's what I asked for was feedback.
1) EDZ Quote:"I do agree that feels can and do change slightly"
EDZ, I just want to clarify that in my post I was maintaining that certain changes have the ability to have "huge and exciting" feels associated with them, but over time (say a year or two) can come to the point that your not even aware of them- they essentially disappear. That fact points out at least one essential element of feel- that it is not absolute and never changing, and you can't use it if you want a consistent procedure. So I just wanted to make sure that your comment was saying that "you ONLY agree thtat feel can and does change slightly" and not that I was saying that they change slightly- although there are those situations where they also do just change slightly.
2) EDZ Quote: "That said, I agree with Homer that one uses "feel" to reproduce"
Let's clarify what Homer is referrring to, because your quote above is absolutely correct (from the book) but can have completely incorrect assumptions related to it. Homer knew that everyday your feel would be different- that to get your feel for that day you could trace the plane line or use some other exact visual standard to verify what it felt like that day. On the other hand, it's easy to read "let feel reproduce" and think that once you got it correct that you could repeat it everytime with the same feel- that is not what he meant.
In 5-0 page 61, he talks about closing your eyes to be more aware of the of what your hands are doing (by the way I believe that this concept especially resulted or grew out of the fact that his aunt was blind and he learned and saw how she was able to move around etc from personal experience), and then he says in that section "until the Hands no longer consciously monitor the Clubhead or the Body- only themselves. That is what I am elaborating on, in my three posts 1) hand controlled pivot, 2) Integration, 3) What is feel.
EDZ Quote: "Feel may be relative, but it is critical to the feedback loop in learning"
EDZ,
In summary, feel is critical to the feedback loop in learning. But 1) it is a tool to integrate your movement, and 2) when your making a fully coordinated movement- there is a hierarchical relationship between, say in golf, trying to move your hands and be aware of where you want to move them i.e. one's procedure and the fuzzy background of all the feels created by and during that movement. Hand controlled as I described in my first post is first and primary, and any feel(s) are secondary. It's a crucial area to be able to understand- again Homer and I are in agreement- I just elaborated on the concept more.
I think it depends on how you are using 'feel'. Feel alone will mislead. I find that if I "look, look, look" as a way to match feels with geometry, my feels stay fairly similar. It is, as Homer observed, essential to do both.
The root of my swing feels come from three areas. First, the sense of 'swing', of the entire, heavy, club - the sense of the pressure points in the hands. Second, from my feet and the rhythm transmitted through them. And Third, the sense of balance, which boils down to smooth, efficient motion, again, the heavy swinging club, and 'center'. Every motion is in support of impact.
Swing changes magnify the intensity of feels, as well as the nature of them, their particular quality. Over time the intensity of a feel may fade, but the essential quality of it doesn't - the pressure points in your hands should feel the same, you should have 'command' of their feel, but not by 'doing'.
I think there are important differences between training and playing. When I'm at the range, I may focus on a given mental image, or feel of my hands more directly for a few shots, and then I'll turn off that 'monitor' and just react. When I do that, I can't say I am 'feeling' anything other than an outcome, after the fact.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
I really like the evolution of a procedure. I was stuck in the never-ending circle of always changing my procedure for years. And you are correct, there are no fruits to bear from that folly.
After my lesson with Yoda in December, I have found myself trying to incorporate a procedure consistently, but reverting back from time to time because as you say, the sensing the body does not come right away.
But I keep focusing on my right forearm take-away and getting it into the correct position at the top, that is, right hand to right shoulder high. I am starting to sense the other secondary body movements more and more over time.
By the way, I view my right forearm flying wedge (which includes the hand) as one unit.
FEEL: WHAT IS IT?
Feel is contextual. It is not an absolute to be taken as a given, never changing. Many people approach the different feels that they experience in sport as something that is absolute and never changing. They believe that if they move in the exact manner as a professional that the feel would be the same, or if they move in the exact way that they did last week that the feel would be the same. They believe that if the feel is the same as last week that the movement will be the same and therefore they should be able to get the same great result that they got last week from that certain feel.
What one must realize is that while what one perceives visually can appear the same over and over with repeatable results, what one perceives by feel is constantly changing by it's very nature and this is crucial using feel properly to integrate your movement.
I have often wondered why a "feeling" that works one day absolutely fails the next day. Your explanation of this phenomenon is very helpful. Great post!
I really like the evolution of a procedure. I was stuck in the never-ending circle of always changing my procedure for years. And you are correct, there are no fruits to bear from that folly.
After my lesson with Yoda in December, I have found myself trying to incorporate a procedure consistently, but reverting back from time to time because as you say, the sensing the body does not come right away.
But I keep focusing on my right forearm take-away and getting it into the correct position at the top, that is, right hand to right shoulder high. I am starting to sense the other secondary body movements more and more over time.
By the way, I view my right forearm flying wedge (which includes the hand) as one unit.
Trigolt,
Thanks for the positive comments. Not sure if you had a question in your response or wanted a comment or observation, if you did let me know. Otherwise, keep working on it!
Thanks,
Mike O.
Feel changes for a host of reasons (variables), for the professional or the amateur...something has changed....practice time, exercise has changed (I didn't run my normal 5 miles this morning, or I didn't run at all), I played two rounds today instead of one....I carried my golf bag from the car to the range, normally my caddie does that....recovering from an injury, exhaustion from traveling (walking through 5 airports this week versus two last week), I partied too much last night after my tournament win....there is a definable reason for a feel change, I don't believe it's some big mystery. It's explainable...that's why professionals have a daily routine; diet, exercise, practice, etc....to make their preformance more predictable.
I actually don't get the feel change much at all anyhow, the more I groove my swing on a daily basis, I really don't feel much change....a routine change would create the small variation in feel....
All Hands Controlled Pivot players... Are you focusing on the Left Hand--Clubface... Right Hand--Clubhead... or the #3 Pressure Point-- Sweet Spot... or all of these simultaneously... or something else?
All Hands Controlled Pivot players... Are you focusing on the Left Hand--Clubface... Right Hand--Clubhead... or the #3 Pressure Point-- Sweet Spot... or all of these simultaneously... or something else?
All and none, lol
#3pp on the inside quad of the ball, aiming point.
My practice swing thought lately has been extensor action- that reverse pressure point Homer called it somewhere in the book.
After I while the hands do the thinking and I don't ask.
All Hands Controlled Pivot players... Are you focusing on the Left Hand--Clubface... Right Hand--Clubhead... or the #3 Pressure Point-- Sweet Spot... or all of these simultaneously... or something else?
I try to focus on pulling the club against the "LAG/resistance" in "swinging" or pushing against the clubhead "LAG/resistance" in "hitting" through impact with both hands.
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
Linear Mode
