Understanding the Pivot -- Its Motion and Component Participation
Originally Posted by plumdog
thanks for the words lynn ill clarify if i may....love the site. you are correct in that we advocate no backstroke weight shift. i disagree with your analysis of the shoulder turn and refer you to 2g and later 2h Shoulder motions. "the point may be made that is impossible to inscribe perfect circles while center is in motion. that is the turning shoulder. the straight line requirements of the compression point are satisfied as long as both horizonal and vertical centers move precisely in unison. directional control remain stable because both centers are moving precisely in a circle....THAT IS THE CIRCUMFERECE OF THE SHOULDER TURN." there are anatomical considerations for the shoulders to turn in a cirlcle as you know. my first question to you is how do you rectify turning the shoulders turn in a circle and transfer the weight on the backswing? translating only the hips would tilt the spine to the left....translating the hips and the head would violate the circle requirements. next, how do you reconcile the change of standard knee action from edition 2 to right anchor in later additions?? as it seems to me the right anchor flattens the hips and shoulder turn? the flatter than rotated shoulder turn change the horizonal component of the backswing and translate the axis of the shoulder turn back to the right....violating 2g(later 2h)......of course all bets are off if you allow the hip and shoulder turn to both move back equally (lunge equals sway). all the best
Thanks for your post, Andy. Good questions all and ones I will be happy to discuss in detail later. Meanwhile, I am stealing time from Mrs. Yoda waiting with my cold coffee on the terrace at Baltusrol as I post this quick answer from the locker room.
1. The Shoulder turns about its Pivot Center, the Stationary Head (or, alternatively, the 'point between the shoulders'). The Pivot Center remains fixed, regardless of other Component Motion or Action, e.g., the Weight Shift via the Hip Slide (in either direction or both).
2. With Head held Stationary, any Weight Shift (Hip Shift) does indeed cause the lower spine to swing away from its fixed top. Again, this 'tilt' occurs in both directions. The movement of the lower spine toward the target in the Downstroke is well known. The movement away from it in the Backstroke has been virtually ignored.
3. Both items #1 and #2 above are possible because of our 'Hula Hula flexibility' -- the ability to move the Shoulders independently of the Hips (and vice versa) -- as described in 7-12 (the Pivot).
4. The Bent Knee (either the Right on the Backstroke or the Left on the Downstroke) does indeed flatten the Hip Turn. Any straightening of either Knee tilts the Hips in the direction on the straightened knee. This straightening is the 'Standard Action,' so described by Homer Kelley because "this is the way it has been done [by most golfers] for centuries." The Maximum Participation Stroke Pattern in the 3rd edition utilized this Standard variation (10-16-A) because it has the most movement of the Knee Action Variations, i.e., the "Maximum Participation."
5. In his personal work with students, Homer Kelley himself differentiated between the Sample Stroke Patterns of the 3rd edition -- customized Patterns -- and the Basic Stroke Patterns of the later editions (12-1-0 and 12-2-0).
This is a great topic. Let's keep it going. Meanwhile, Andy, I'm off for Westchester and the Barclays Classic this afternoon. Hope to see you on the tee!
I've been long (and invain) waiting for a follow-up to this very interesting thread
Who (and why) trew the sponge? Lynn or Andy? Are they still in good relationships?
Ciao
I've been long (and in vain) waiting for a follow-up to this very interesting thread. Who (and why) threw the sponge? Lynn or Andy? Are they still in good relationships?
No thrown sponges, Libero. Just men at work.
Andy (Plummer) and Mike (Bennett) are riding a wave. I see them -- and talk with them -- most every week when I'm out on TOUR. Most recently, just two weeks ago at The Barclays.
They are dedicated to their students, and with camera in hand, they do their best to help every week.
Plummer, Bennett and Blake, three tour level instructors who help everyone appreciate the golfing machine and play better. No golf channel commentary, no swingvision analysis that sounds the same every time, no comments on student's personal problems to explain a student's lack of progress. A good eye, imagination and the yellow book= results.
Hi Lynn,old man,(even if I'm nearly as old as you),thanks for ur reply.
I understand the going. Good to know stack&tilters still belong to our
family.
Ciao
Plummer, Bennett and Blake, three tour level instructors who help everyone appreciate the golfing machine and play better. No golf channel commentary, no swingvision analysis that sounds the same every time, no comments on student's personal problems to explain a student's lack of progress. A good eye, imagination and the yellow book= results.
Thanks, Dodger. It really is happening . . . .
On the practice tees of America . . .
On the PGA TOUR . . .
And even on The Golf Channel on Saturday of The Barclays . . .
The Stressed Clubshaft (Clubhead Control and Power) . . . .
The Flat Left Wrist (Clubface Control and Rhythm) . . .
The Straight Plane Line (Clubshaft Control and the Inclined Plane of Motion).
I have read and re-read this post many times over the past few months and had to finally sign-up to post a question to you.
With ONLY the interest of knowledge (not to cause controversy amongst peers) as the basis of this question in mind.....
Which point (or 2 points) of Mike and Andy's pattern do you MOST disagree with?
Thanks for the insight and for creating a site with such an incredible wealth of knowledge.
Clearwater,
I am glad you enjoyed these past few months as a 'lurking' guest. Welcome aboard as a bonafide member, and thank you for your first post!
To your question:
I advocate a Right Shoulder that moves back to the Inclined Plane (Turned Shoulder Plane / 10-13-B), not a Left Shoulder that moves down (toward wherever).
I advocate Hands that move from an Elbow Plane (10-6-A) to the Turned Shoulder Plane (Single Shift / 10-7-B), not Hands that move from a Hands Plane (10-6-E) to an Elbow Plane ("X" Classification).
Andy Plummer (Plumdog on this site) and Mike Bennett are friends that I meet on the practice tees of the PGA TOUR. I admire their work, but on these two points . . .
I am glad you enjoyed these past few months as a 'lurking' guest. Welcome aboard as a bonafide member, and thank you for your first post!
To your question:
I advocate a Right Shoulder that moves back to the Inclined Plane (Turned Shoulder Plane / 10-13-B), not a Left Shoulder that moves down (toward wherever).
I advocate Hands that move from an Elbow Plane (10-6-A) to the Turned Shoulder Plane (Single Shift / 10-7-B), not Hands that move from a Hands Plane (10-6-E) to an Elbow Plane ("X" Classification).
Andy Plummer (Plumdog on this site) and Mike Bennett are friends that I meet on the practice tees of the PGA TOUR. I admire their work, but on these two points . . .
We definitely see things differently.
The beauty is that both procedures work.
A Q.
Isn´t Elbow plane 10-6-A and not an X?
__________________
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-- to them! 
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