Martee,
I can't really explain the concept of the left wrist facing the plane- as it is not one that I use or originated. Nor did Homer use it in the book. Are we talking about the left wrist/palm exactly parallel to the plane?, or just a general term of generally facing the plane? Of course, that would apply with hitting also- the left wrist facing the plane. Does the hitter or swinger have their left wrist/palm facing earlier or later than the other? Depends on the player and his pattern. Generally speaking during the takeaway for a swinger who is setting up momentum in the club by dragging the club back- you're not going to have much rotation of the forearm at that point, until the hands slow down and the momentum of the club continues- and rotates the left wrist. The hitter would generally have rotation from the very beginning, created by the body/arm motion- not an independent or conscious rotation of the forearms. Likewise, the swinger doesn't conscious rotate his forearms but that occurs as a result of centrifugal force, anotherwords your loading actions and acceleration methods determine your wrist actions in the ideal situation, for both hitters and swingers. That's just part of understanding the individual components of the Golfing Machine and their role in relation to the broader concepts in the Golfing Machine.
Mike O.
Martee,
I can't really explain the concept of the left wrist facing the plane- as it is not one that I use or originated. Nor did Homer use it in the book. Are we talking about the left wrist/palm exactly parallel to the plane?, or just a general term of generally facing the plane? Of course, that would apply with hitting also- the left wrist facing the plane. Does the hitter or swinger have their left wrist/palm facing earlier or later than the other? Depends on the player and his pattern. Generally speaking during the takeaway for a swinger who is setting up momentum in the club by dragging the club back- you're not going to have much rotation of the forearm at that point, until the hands slow down and the momentum of the club continues- and rotates the left wrist. The hitter would generally have rotation from the very beginning, created by the body/arm motion- not an independent or conscious rotation of the forearms. Likewise, the swinger doesn't conscious rotate his forearms but that occurs as a result of centrifugal force, anotherwords your loading actions and acceleration methods determine your wrist actions in the ideal situation, for both hitters and swingers. That's just part of understanding the individual components of the Golfing Machine and their role in relation to the broader concepts in the Golfing Machine.
Mike O.
Note I don't believe I advocated the rotation of the forearm, but of the wrist(which will if done will eventually effect the forearm).
What you wrote is exact the opposite that I was taught.
The uncocking of the left wrist should be a perpendicular motion (2-P) and when on inclined plane to maintain the clubshaft to remain on the plane face (2-F) that would require the palm to be facing the inclined plane as I understand it.
Given the 10-18 references (matches 12-1/-2 stroke patterns), I believe it is more than fair to say there is a turn both for the swinger and hitter.
Given the above two paragraphs, I would say Homer did use it in his book. Both a hitter and swinger are at the top with the left palm down and the right palm up.
I need to reseach out more why a swinger is completed so early but the hitter is gradual, like the body/pivot motion. The swinger in the downstroke uncocks and then rolls into impact (swivels). If the actions of the downstroke is opposite that of the backstroke (7-18 ), then for the swinger it would be a 'start up swivel' which would or should be completed before the hitter who is letting the it be as the pivot motion goes.
1) From impact fix, push the handle back on plane with PP 1(right arm pickup; limp left arm) to the top (shoulder high) without rotating arms;
2) Push back down with PP 1 (slowly) on same plane and accelerate through line-of-sight. To China.
Do I have it right?
Thanks
Channelback
Almost...one little word change...
You PULL the right arm back with right forearm pickup. Everything else, I like.
I may have missed something or am not understanding/using the correct term
I thought, be it swinger or hitter, there is arm rotation in the backstroke. The difference being the hitter does it gradually to the top and the swinger does it quickly (probably before hip high hands).
So based on what I said, what did I missunderstand or am I just usnig the wrong terms?
You're very correct that the arm does rotate in both. Deliberately in hitting, finally with clubface getting to plane at top. In swinging, the sweetspot lays an the plane much sooner.
You're very correct that the arm does rotate in both. Deliberately in hitting, finally with clubface getting to plane at top. In swinging, the sweetspot lays an the plane much sooner.
'Sweetspot lays on Plane.... If there were no rotation, then it would be the hosel that laid on the Plane.....
Okay, I believe that is right.
Now, The steeper the Plane Angle, the less the turn is? If the plane Angle was vertical, no turn.?.
The flatter the Plane Angle, then the more the turn.
This is really wrist/hand rotation and the arms are along for the ride so to speak. Maybe if I am tracking correctly the use of arm rotation is not the best, but maybe wrist rotation is more accurate?
In Brian's video he was simply trying to show the difference in the forearm rotation in swinging/hitting. By showing the left arm rotates open towards the plane, cocks up the plane, comes down the plane, hits the inside back corner of the ball, rotates to the plane again, and then up the plane.
__________________
I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
I'm not really qualified to speak on this (or any other) aspect of TGM, but this was an area that gave me a lot of trouble so I'll risk trying to put my feelings into words in the hope that it might help clarify some of the previous replies.
Let's suppose that you're going into the grocery store and you come face to face with Osama bin Laden. Your first thought is to give him a karate chop to his neck, so you pull your left arm back and, keeping your palm facing down to the ground, whack him as hard as you can with the edge of your palm.
Your second thought is that it's a little strange for Osama to be shopping at the same grocery store, so it might be wise not to kill this guy, maybe it'd be safer just to knock him out. So you decide to whack him upside the head with the back of your hand. You pull your left arm back, putting your hand in the same palm-down position, but lower your shoulder slightly so your arm will rotate 90 degrees before you hit him.
The difference is more in the orientation of your shoulder than in the initial position of your hand. To relate this to the question about Hitting vs. Swinging, the hands would be in the same position at the Top (if the Swinger stopped there) but the left shoulder would be oriented differently depending on the desired Hinge Action. At least that's the way it feels to me.
I think the reward for Osama is for dead or alive. I'd shoot him, myself.
Hi Mike O. 6-B-3-0-1 says "the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft,
and the BACK OF THE LEFT HAND are always positioned against
the same flat plane."
Another item in the discussion about Layback and closing.
This sounds a lot like pronation instead of Supinating. I realize
that Ben Hogan was most likely swinging rather than hitting but
he said "When a golfer's left wrist begins to pronate just before
impact, it changes his arc: it shortens it drastically and makes
the pitch of his upswing altogether too steep and constricted.
At the very point in the swing in which he should increasing
the speed of his hands, by pronating he slows them down.
Instead of accelarating and picking up speed at impact, he has
expanded all his speed before he hits the ball"
Guess that I will be eaten alive for suggesting that layback/closing
appears to be pronation, but I can be corrected.
Donn,
I wouldn't mind discussing this with you, but we will need to work through the terminology and get to your exact question. Pronation/Supination are medical terms for movement of the forearm - that movement doesn't change the wrist condition. That said , it's important to note that in Ben Hogan's paper back book "Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" on page 102 and 103- Hogan used those terms inappropriately in regards to the wrist- arching and bending the wrist would be the general non-medical explanation of those wrist conditions in Hogan's book, NOT pronation and supination. The terms he uses in his book are practically embarrassing- in their lack of regard for the proper medical term.
Mike O.
Edit update: Donn, you are correct that bending the left wrist causes the clubface to close and lay back. But keep in mind, that hinging, specifically angled hinging(closing with layback) is performed with a flat left wrist. So bending the left wrist, producing closing and layback is not the same as a hinging motion.
Back to the medical terms- Homer used the turning and rolling terms because he could apply them at the same time to both forearms. As opposed to pronation and supination- where the left forearm say is supinating while the right forearm does the opposite move of pronation. I believe that you're referring to the lead left forearm, in which case the forearm motion of supination would tend to be a closing only move, while pronation would be a no closing or reverse roll move. But I'm just rambling incoherently now- if you want to repost and clarify, we could continue- otherwise I'll consider the case closed.
Thanks,
Mike
Donn,
I wouldn't mind discussing this with you, but we will need to work through the terminology and get to your exact question. Pronation/Supination are medical terms for movement of the forearm - that movement doesn't change the wrist condition. That said , it's important to note that in Ben Hogan's paper back book "Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" on page 102 and 103- Hogan used those terms inappropriately in regards to the wrist- arching and bending the wrist would be the general non-medical explanation of those wrist conditions in Hogan's book, NOT pronation and supination. The terms he uses in his book are practically embarrassing- in their lack of regard for the proper medical term.
Mike O.
Linear Mode
