I suspect that there is another factor that is responsible for the roll of PA#3 and that it is related to pure physics.
Have you ever watched an Iron Byron-style machine in action? It has a passive universal joint at the peripheral hinge point - where the club is attached to the central arm. That universal joint allows the grip to rotate freely in all directions. During the Iron Byron's release action the club automatically rotates to become square at impact. How is that possible if there is no active force causing rotation of the grip end of the club? I believe that it is likely due to the fact that the COG of the clubhead is not in line with the clubshaft, which means that there is a natural rotary force occurring with respect to the clubhead-around-the-axis-of-the clubshaft that causes the clubhead to automatically rotate to square by impact.
Jeff.
Jeff there seems a lot of factors involved in #3 accum roll power and controlling it may well be the most important part of a swing..it seems a subject that is avoided simply cause its complicated
Jeff there seems a lot of factors involved in #3 accum roll power and controlling it may well be the most important part of a swing..it seems a subject that is avoided simply cause its complicated
Pistol,Soooo true,it is without a doubt why so many of us golfers dont practice it any where near enough as we should and indeed it warrants.The reason I so named it Station 23 is so I can practice it as 1 motion ,yes I do relise there are 2 definite ACCs here but trying to learn it as 2 seperate moves can be distracting to say the least.
As far as my mention of the KINETIC chain,it was merely a question in relation to a kinetic link on Manzella.s kinetic chain vid where the lower body reaches a point where it allows the upper body to "catch-up" so to speak to keep or maintain the kinetic link....my comments where more of a query more than anything specific...just an observation tis all...and my friend Im not saying Im right...Cheers
I started a similar thread on the topic of PA#3 release in the advanced section.
Okie - Regarding the magic of PA#3's roll action, you wonder what makes the left hand roll into impact.
I suspect that the major factor is the movement of the right palm. At the delivery position. the right elbow is still bent at a right angle and the right palm faces more-or-less in the direction of the ball-target line. Then, during the release swivel phase of the downswing, the right elbow straightens and that causes the right forearm to paddlewheel into impact so that the right forearm is behind the shaft at impact and the right palm faces the target at impact. That means that the right palm moves through a 90 degree rotation during the release swivel phase of the swing, and that phenomenon should roll the left hand over (= release of PA #3). On page 73 of the 7th edition, HK states-: "The "On plane" Right Forearm ALWAYS establishes and maintains the correct clubshaft-left arm angle through release and impact".
Jeff.
The straightening of the rear arm is of great importance, imo, when talking about the relationship between acc 2 and 3.
As you stated above, being on plane to begin with. But let´s not forget about which loading the player is intending to use and thereby where the rear elbow is positioned.
This would affect if the release is sequenced or simultanious.
__________________
Golf is an impossible game with impossible tools - Winston Churchill
You wrote-: "As far as my mention of the KINETIC chain,it was merely a question in relation to a kinetic link on Manzella.s kinetic chain vid where the lower body reaches a point where it allows the upper body to "catch-up" so to speak to keep or maintain the kinetic link....my comments where more of a query more than anything specific...just an observation tis all...and my friend Im not saying Im right...Cheers."
Do you have a link to BM's video on the kinetic chain?
I have read the thread on his website re: kinetic chain and I couldn't find one informed post.
I have two questions for anybody who believes that snapping the kinetic chain is essential for the club to release in a golf swing.
1) How does the club release in the Iron Byron' swing where there is no kinetic link, and only a central arm rotating in space at a finite speed with no sudden deceleration prior to impact?
2) When I perform a left-handed single arm swing by simply swinging my left arm at an uniform speed across the front of my body (after allowing the clubshaft to acquire a 90 degree angle relative to the straight left arm at the top of the swing), I can easily/naturally/automatically/passively get the club to release in a natural manner without moving my body in space (in a kinetic link pivoting manner). How do I achieve the goal of releasing the club in a natural manner without any kinetic link phenomenon and without decelerating my left arm?
The straightening of the rear arm is of great importance, imo, when talking about the relationship between acc 2 and 3.
As you stated above, being on plane to begin with. But let´s not forget about which loading the player is intending to use and thereby where the rear elbow is positioned.
This would affect if the release is sequenced or simultanious.
Amen corner,Im not really concentrating on a particular "loading" as yet,but yes the straightening of the trailing forearm is most important,I call him a late boarder on station23.lol..in my drill I am mainly concentrating on complete shoulder turning and adding pa#2 then I add pa #1.This drill is only at 1/4 speed pretty much aquired motion.Again,Im not saying this is for every one,but Im improving by using this method.......I think that Homer said something about not caring where the ball goes when your practicing drills,That is worth keeping in mind
You wrote-: "Jeff there seems a lot of factors involved in #3 accum roll power and controlling it may well be the most important part of a swing..it seems a subject that is avoided simply cause its complicated."
I agree that there are a lot of factors involved in PA#3 rollover, but I don't think that is requires conscious action to control these factors because they occur naturally. I have previously mentioned two factors that affect the PA#3 rollover action. 1) The on-plane movement of the right forearm pre-impact which causes the right palm to face the target by impact and 2) the physics of the clubhead/clubshaft which causes the clubhead to roll over naturally during the release phase.
Consider a third factor. If a swinger performs a right forearm takeaway action the right hand gets to the end-backswing position and ends up like a waiter holding a tray of dishes. The left hand has to follow the right hand because they are conjoined at the grip. If one keeps the left arm straight and prevents the left wrist from bending, then the left arm is obliged to rotate clockwise during the backswing - so that the watchface on the left wrist, which faced the target at address, faces slightly skywards at the end-backswing position. During the downswing, when the shoulders rotate to a position that is parallel to the target line, or slightly open to the target line, then the left arm will have a natural/automatic tendency to rotate counterclockwise to its resting state (the back of the left hand will face the target when the left arm hangs down naturally from the shoulder). In other words, release of PA#3 (roll over of the left hand) occurs naturally if you do not interfere with its natural action, and it does not require conscious thought. One merely has to ensure that the right forearm is on-plane pre-impact, so that the right palm progressively faces the target as it reaches the impact zone. The combination of these three factors will allow the the left hand to roll-over naturally without any need for conscious thought.
I reviewed that Brain Manzella video. Although he uses the term "snapping the kinetic chain" what he actually describes has nothing to do with a kinetic chain. Because I do not believe that the kinetic link model theory has applicability to the full golf swing, I could explain what he is saying without referring to the "kinetic chain".
He is basically stating that it is important to hit against a firm left side. I also believe that it is important for two reasons.
1) If one braces the left leg in the downswing, and creates a "firm left side", then it stabilises the position of the lower spine during the mid-late downswing. If the head is kept back (so that the left side of the face doesn't get nearer the target) during the downswing, and one limits forward movement of the lumbar spine, then one creates the secondary spinal tilt that is necessary for the upper torso to rotate properly in the downswing - with the right shoulder moving downplane. That's a major factor in controlling the directional approach of the arms in the mid-late downswing.
2) If one braces the left leg in the downswing and prevents left-lateral swaying of the pelvis, then the upper torso and arms can rotate with more controlled power and allow for a solid compressive blow at impact. It is similar to a boxer who hits a knockout blow with his right arm driven to full extension. If the boxer doesn't brace his lead leg and lower body, he would simply fall-into-the-strike and all his potential strike-power would be lost.
Jeff,you can sit here and argue kinetics for hours if not months and still get no-where,we all have probably used the kinetic links to a lot of things in our life but been completly unaware of it,ie.skimming stones across a pond,cracking whips etc ,the list goes on and on,please dont tell me you dont believe in kinetics in golf application.....imo you would be errant,as for a boxer using a steady front leg to deliver a KO blow,WRONG,it is in fact the follow up movement of the rear leg that adds the power,trust me Im an ex pro boxer and I do know.
As for my station23,I am nearing 60,no intention of being a pro golfer,just looking to hit the ball using the info from Homers book and what I am learning from forums such as this great and VERY informative forum,My approach I believe is sound for what Im trying achieve,a sound and repetitive swing....Cheers
I believe in kinetic sequencing with respect to the full golf swing, but I don't believe in the kinetic link theory which espouses a COM principle - that external torque is inputted into the system when the golfer starts the downswing motion by "external torque applied as a function of translating ground reaction force at the feet into a force couple at the hips rotating the hips against the force of the ground" (Chris Welch's words) and that the momentum thereby generated is "fixed" and then transferred from one body part to another body part via the principle of COM. I can accept the first part of the kinetic link sequence whereby translational ground reaction forces allow the hips to start rotating, but I do not believe that COM is responsible for all (or most of) the subsequent rotational motion of the upper torso and arms.
I certainly don't believe that the kinetic link theory has any relevance for golfers who use the Leslie King arm swing approach.
Leslie King states-: "Now, maintaining the shoulders in the fully turned position, we simply commence the downward swing of the left hand and arm. That is how the downswing starts, and nothing could be simpler!
I stress again, the SHOULDERS MUST REMAIN IN THE FULLY TURNED POSITION at the beginning of the downswing! The same left foot action that has "charged" the hands with power is enabling us to control the shoulders.
By keeping the shoulders fully turned the left hand and arm can swing freely from the left shoulder, taking the club-head down into the ball on a club line that will result in a swing into and along the line of flight through impact."
What Leslie King is describing is the release of PA#4 via a left arm pulling action (left arm being pulled down to the ball by the left shoulder girdle muscles) rather than the usual pivot-induced release of PA#4. In this swing approach, the pelvis reacts to the pull of the left arm, which precedes the pelvic motion.
I also don't think that kinetic link theory of a "fixed" amount of momentum being transferred from the hips => shoulders applies to the Hardy OPS. In the Hardy OPS, the golfer rotates the pelvis and upper torso simultaneously as single unit. Here is an example of an excellent Hardy OPS swing action.
Jeff Ritter rotates his pelvis and shoulders at the same speed at the start of the downswing - as a single rotating unit. His pivot style is very different to the Hogan swing style of sequential rotation of the lower torso => upper torso.
By the way, do you believe that followup movement of the rear leg supplies power in a golf swing? If yes, could you please explain your reasoning.
Linear Mode
