I only meant to say that JE's Pattern is a "My Way" Pattern. As strongly as he feels about it, he should teach it. But Once a "My Way" Pattern is designed and taught, I wouldn't call it TGM anymore. Call it J.E.M. or something so as not to confuse the Golfing Public.
I truly like what he says about Zone 1. The Pivot should keep moving and move far.
I disagree that everything he does and says resides within the Conceptual bounds of TGM. His theory is Anti-Power Package and Anti-Arm Acceleration Sequence. Additionally, the P3-4:30 position, which means that when the Clubshaft is Parallel to the Ground during the Downswing, but that the Butt End of the Club points to a 4:30 Position (inside Aft Quadrant of the Ball) on the Ball, is off Plane. When the Clubshaft is Parallel to the Ground it should also be Parallel to the Base-Line of the Inclined Plane. I don't disagree with him, but I don't think that his method should be called TGM.
In Fact, he better be at the 4:30 position with the Clubshaft because his hands are so far from the Ball at Release, he needs the extra Time for his Hands to stay ahead of the Clubhead at Impact.
The following Quote from the 6th Edition, Requires that the Golfer use a Turned Shoulder Plane and Hands Controlled Pivot. Otherwise one cannot get the Hands to the Line-of-Site-to-the-Ball before Release. (TGM is a Method) JE has a Picture Perfect Pitched Elbow Location but it's forced. A Turned Shoulder Plane would Locate it Automatically.
I fail to understand how the #5 Accumulator has reached Accumulator Status? I can't find an Out-of-Line condition? And especially because its Power Application begins after the Ball is Struck, maybe it should be Termed something other than an Accumulator.
Daryl,
You are making some great points about Lag's TGM. Lately, Mr. Erickson has been doing some writing about address alignments that, as an LBG / Brian Gay swing fanatic, I totally disagree with. I really like a lot of his ideas on playing the game, and I'm sure his information will continue to help me in this regard, but I choose to continue on the swing path we are learning here from Master YODA.
Thanks for the help in understanding the differences. Your posts are VERY enlightening and help keep me on track.
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I actively fire #2 and #3 in unison.. but because I do it from pitch, it looks confusing to TGM guys because they are used to seeing passive hand swingers from there..
This is the secret of the P3 4:30 line I teach,
including Hogan's three right hands.
Im just catching up with this post. I love his swing and find his email above very interesting.
Couple of questions/thoughts.
-I dont doubt he does thrust but am wondering about his description of it. How does he fire #2 and #3 at the same time from Pitch elbow? I can see how he can fire #2 with his PP #3 (in its weak knuckle position) actively but wouldnt firing #3 at the same time result in an off plane clubhead orbit? I dunno.
-The 4;30 Angle of Approach, point of contact on the ball , the inside aft quadrant , the inside strike or whatever you want to call it, does not in actuality remain constant. The point of contact on the ball or its corresponding time, changes as the ball position approaches low point on the Angle or Arc of Approach. So 4;30 sometimes 3;00 some other times. Or is he suggesting the ball should be played that far back of low point at all times, driver too?
-I dont read the other forums very often but in regard to Hogan's "three right hands" have you guys discussed this video in that regard. Here Hogan appears to be really laying it on hard with the right side near impact. I dont think that this would make him a hitter however, Pitch being a very week elbow position from which to over ride all of his swing induced CF. If you have a team of horses at the front of the cart and one, albeit a stallion at the rear, is it a pulling or pushing machine?
-in regard to Baggers right arm swinging notion. Does he suffer from Golfers Elbow?
-did Homer lay the ground work for thrusting from Pitch in 10-24-D Non Automatic Snap Release?
This is clearly one of the more interesting threads about swinging vs hitting for a long time.
Daryl's clear and no-compromize analysis are both impressive and convincing. To be precise I am very impressed but not totally convinced at the moment.
The pictures shows quiet hips through impact. Which is very different from what I expect to see from e.g. Sergio Garcias swing. I tend to regard the quiet hips as a sign of a driving force at work. The body waiting for the hands to catch up. And also as an enabler of more angular hinge action. Which all correlate with hitting I believe.
This is a good opportunity to learn a lessen so I will appreciate a comment from Daryl and those who disagree with him.
The Video tells a different story about his Zone 1. It's Fluid, Powerful and Far Moving.
Driving the Right Forearm doesn’t differentiate Hitting and Swinging.
Quote:
1-F RIGHT ARM OR LEFT The “mystery” of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood (6-B-1). Whether its participation is active or passive is difficult to detect visually because in either case the Left Arm is ALWAYS SWINGING and the Right Forearm is ALWAYS DRIVING. But it is always a Left Arm Stroke unless the Right Elbow replaces the Left Shoulder as the center of Clubhead Arc. (10-3-K)
Thrusting the #3 Pressure Point doesn’t differentiate Hitting and Swinging. Swingers thrust on-plane. The “Feeling” that you want Three Right Hands is Clubhead Lag (dead weight inertia) combined with Angular Acceleration.
Quote:
6-C-2-A THE ESSENCE of Clubhead Lag technique is that it is always both Aiming AND Thrust. Passive – it is primarily Aiming the Lag Pressure. Active – it is the primarily Thrusting the Lag Pressure Point. The Orbiting Clubhead does not seek out the Ball – it seeks out the Delivery Line. But never directly – only via the Right Forearm and the #3 Pressure Point per 2-F, 5-0 and 7-3. It is guided along that Line to the Both Arms Straight configuration by the straight line thrust of the #3 Pressure Point toward the Angle of Approach quadrant of the Ball – or Aiming Point – per 1-F, 1-L-9/10, 2-J-3 and 6-E-2.
6-C-2-B ANGULAR ACCELERATION The Clubhead “overtaking” speed is governed by the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum whereby the increased Mass resulting from any extension of the Swing Radius decelerates the hands and unless they are supported by Power Package Thrust (6-B-1) or Throw Out Action (2-K), can result in great loss of Clubhead Speed. Rely on Clubhead Lag to meter out the necessary support for the Primary Lever Assembly.
LOADING ACTION:
If you Load the #3 Pressure Point against the Primary Lever, then you’re preparing to Hit. This supports Hand Motion and the Power Package DRIVES the Right Elbow to along your Right Side at Release. From Release through Impact the Clubface is looking Down-plane and the Right Elbow Straightens like a Piston to Radial Drive the Clubshaft through Impact.
If you Load the #3 Pressure Point against the Secondary Lever, then you’re preparing to Swing. John Erickson Loads the #3 Pressure Point against the Secondary Lever. This supports the Wristcock and at Release, the Right Elbow is in Front of the Right Hip because the Power Package DROVE it to that Location. The Steeper the Plane Angle, the Closer to your Belt Buckle the Power Package DRIVES the Right Elbow.
RELEASE TRIGGERS
Now, One would think that his Right Arm Throw Trigger (from the Top) is a sign of a Hitter. Normally it is when the Direction of THRUST is at the Ball. However, for John Ericson, the Direction of Thrust is Down-plane but AWAY from the Ball, to His Right as he Uncocks His Elbow to get his Right Forearm On-Plane at Release. In John’s own Words: “On top of that, you have to learn what I believe to be the most difficult swing move in all of golf. Straightening the right arm out quickly on the downswing…while the torso turns flat or at right angles to the spine or axis. It’s a great move to master though, because if you can do it, you can’t ever get over the top of the shot and pull it.
For those who are still confused, it feels like you are coming right over the top to hit a big pull shot, but instead, that hands move straight down, as if they are going to land in your right hip pocket, but your shoulders are turning as flat a 15th century Spanish globe.”
There are TWO Right Arm Throws. The Second one (if you didn’t use the First) is used by Hitters at Release to Release the #2 and #3 Accumulators Simultaneously. You need a Punch Elbow Position to Use this Trigger.
John Erickson uses a Non-Automatic Sequenced Release. He Swivels his Left Wrist from Bent to Flat at the Start Of Release. This way, he has a Rolled Clubface at the Beginning of his Release. But because he Releases so Early, he must move His Hands (Uncocking but with a Rolled Clubface) another 12 inches until Impact. In slow-motion, it’s readily observed that his Pivot is Closing the Clubface for Impact. Clearly, this is not a Simultaneous Release. He is Confusing Hinging and Swiveling. I bet he Swivels when he Swings and that When he Hinges, it feels like Hitting.
John is using Feeling to describe his Mechanics. With the Greatest Golfers in the World, what they Describe and what actually happens are too often different.
John is a Pivot Controlled Hands Swinger. He doesn't use a Power Package according the the Concept by Homer Kelley. When he Bends and Unbends his Right Elbow, he breaks a Cardinal rule. 1 L-8 No proportion of the Lever Assembly can swing forward independently.
Unless in the extreme situations I have always struggeled to understand the difference between hitting and swinging. Great responses you have produced here.
Release. The Yellow Line represents his Line of Sight to the Ball.
Johns Early Release is diagnostic. But it's not because his head is 8 inches behind center. It's his Power Package. There is no Rigid Structure. That means that the Power Package (Arms and Hands) changes their geometry during the Backstroke and Downstroke. Although the Power Package lowers his hands during the Downstroke, unbending his Right Arm stops his right elbow from being driven to a more forward On-Plane Location.
The Purpose of the TGM Power Package is to Drive the Right Elbow to an On Plane Location for Release on your Selected Swing Plane Angle (Zone 2) thus allowing the Hands (Zone 3) to become Finesse Control. The Power Package is held Rigid and moves up and Down from the Shoulder Sockets.
According to TGM Power Package theory, the less you bend your Right Arm during the Backstroke, the Steeper the Plane Angle. You have a Rigid Power Package if you don't unbend the Right Elbow until Release. Then, as the Power Package Lowers from the Shoulder Sockets during the Downstroke, the Hands Lower BUT so does the Right Elbow thus, the Right Elbow, as part of the Power Package, is Driven, along with the Hands by the Power Package.
You can easily do this experiment yourselves. From a Centered Address, don't move anything except raise your Arms from the Shoulder Sockets while not putting more bend in your right arm. Your Right Elbow is in-Front of you and your Plane Angle is extremely steep. Raise and Lower your hands a few times from your Shoulder Sockets and notice that while moving your hands up and down, that your Right Elbow Also Moves up and down.
The Anti-Power Package motion is very different. Cock your Right Elbow (pull it backwards) from Address and your hands move to the Right. Then any further Bending and Unbending of your Right Elbow will raise and Lower the Hands but will not move the Right Elbow. Power Package is lost.
Hitters will Cock their Right Elbow, but once Cocked to about 90 degrees this geometry is raised and Lowered from the Shoulder Sockets just like in the Previous demonstration without further bending or Unbending of the Right Elbow until Release. Therefore, during the Downstroke, for Hitters, the Right Elbow Returns to this exact Location for Release. Furthermore, the Elbow and Hands arrive at Release with a Fully Cocked Elbow, at their Side Alignment, and the Hands are in Line of Sight to the Ball (unless you use a Right Arm Throw from the Top...then, all bets are off).
One last thing. Hitters using the Right Arm Throw From the Top, will feel it necessary to Over-cock their Right Elbows to get the Hands Closer to the Body at the Top so that they can feel a Straight-Line Thrust to the Ball and not run out of right arm before release. This is counter-productive. Using a Rigid Power Package along with a Pivot will Accelerate the Hands and locate them in the Line-of-sight to the ball at Release, and a Right Arm Trigger at Release will become stage three of the acceleration sequence rather than stage two.
Calling All Hitters. Place your Elbow at your side and your Right Forearm at 90 degrees to your Shoulders. Lower your Right Hand until the #3 PP points at the Plane-Line. Resume Pivoting to the Left until your Hands are at the Line-of-sight to the Ball. That's how far your Pivot should move in the Downstroke to the Release Point. That's almost Impact Fix. To get to Impact Fix, simply straighten (right arm throw) your Right Arm (like a Piston) as the Pivot Continues and the Clubhead will knock the ball off the Tee. As you straighten the Right Arm, note that Impact occurs before the straightening the the Right Arm moves the Hands (left) to Center of the Body, which should occur at Full extension.
So, the Difference between Hitters and Swingers is How they Load the Clubshaft in order to Accelerate the Clubhead either Radial or Longitudinal in Stage Three of the Acceleration Sequence. It's not How Much Right Arm you use, it's How You Use It.
I bet he Swivels when he Swings and that When he Hinges, it feels like Hitting.
Ok Ive been reading his stuff too. I like the his writing and his swing a lot. I dont doubt he thrusts actively. He should know.
But like Daryl's statement above, Im thinking that his former Swinging motion was maybe more based upon his first teacher's, Ben Doyle's, version of swinging than otherwise................an over swivel with the left hand rotating right on through the inclined plane in release being mistaken for a Horizontal Hinge. The left wrist not maintaining its alignment to the Horizontal Basic Plane.
No disrespect intended to Mr Doyle, he was the first authorized instructor and laid the ground work for all who followed. Being first had its disadvantages. The last one in doesnt have it very easy either, come to think of it.
I can't believe what I am reading here,
I've played with Lag and as a ball striker he's pretty good.
We had an awesome day play with the old gear and played some great golf.
The swing your commenting on that day he hit 16 greens.
I've test lags biomechanics and he has good physics.
There are a few areas he can improve on although overall pretty good.
I can't tell you now he's not moving the way you all believe he is , the illusion of video.
How do you know how his swing works when you can't measure each segment speed and know if he has muscular loading.
And measure what the club is doing. If the club is decelerating or accelerating into impact.
How do you know if he has kinetic link (6-M-1) or not so he is using the right sequence.
Lag swings it pretty good and he's actually a hitter. we measured him.
Picking at straws really , the guys swing it quite well, they are a few issue which has nothing to do with what you are talking about. That's an end result, not what his true underlaying issues are
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