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Right Shoulder Turn Thrust for Hitting
Andstill another seeker wanted to know, "Is the right shoulder thrust (towardthe ball) appropriate for Hitting if it is combined with extensor action?"Here's my reply:
With or without Extensor Action, the answer is yes. Butthere are three things to keep in mind.
First, while Extensor Action (6-B-1-D) serves animportant function, it has its own identity. And that identity is separate fromthat of the Right Shoulder Turn Thrust. In other words, let's keep everybody ontheir own turf (as much as possible). It really helps.
Second, remember that the Right Shoulder, being part ofthe Triangle Assembly of 6-A-1, is also a part of the Power Package. Likewise,by definition, it is part of the Pivot.
Third, per 2-M-3, if the Hitter's Thrusting Right Shoulderactually drives the #4 Accumulator through Impact (in addition to the thrust ofPower Accumulator #1, the Bent Right Arm), then you have a true Four BarrelStroke (10-4-D). Otherwise, also per 2-M-3, the Right Shoulder "is moreclearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance, and support of the PowerPackage, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion duringduring Delivery."
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Femoore,
As Homer states in 5-0, "That-failure to clear the right hip (roundhousing) can initiate almost every alignment disruption, including shanking"
So - Homer is saying, we need to establish a lag relationship to the plane line. In order to do so, we must clear the right hip - meaning, move it enough so the hands have a path to the planeline. Now, since we have already established the right shoulder must move onplane (and that the hands will generally follow the path established by the shoulders) - or at least back and down, then it would stand to reason the hips must clear enough to allow the right shoulder to become onplane. No, it doesnt stand to reason. THE HIPS MUST CLEAR ENOUGH TO GET THE RIGHT SHOULDER ONPLANE!!!
So - to me, roundhousing means the shoulder or the hands must move around the hips to move in a line towards the planeline, and this results in a geometrical disaster.
The fix could be two fold:
1. Properly train the pivot. At transition, make a slight bump of the hips which imparts an axis tilt (the shoulders move back and down away from the target somewhat) - that axis tilt allows the shoulder to become onplane, and then naturally - continue the pivot motion.
2. As quickly as possible but under the guidance of how properly the pivot is executing, that same relationship must be established with the hands. So, the command of delivering the lag must include a clearing of the right hip...eventually, as the player works on both of these, hopefully the transition to hands controlled pivot will be easier (but may require periodic trips back to the pivot).
Thats my story and I am sticking to it.
Wow, what a post! Great work, Patrick!
One nitpick: Remember, the Right Shoulder Turn of 10-13-A/C was already OnPlane at the Top. Therefore, it needs the Axis Tilt not to move itthere, but to keep it there during the Start Down, Downstroke, Release,Impact and the Follow-Through.
It's all interrelated!
ICT
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The On Plane Trevino Right Shoulder
hue wrote:
Yoda wrote:
[quote="EdStraker
Homer told me one time that very few golfers actually go all the way down. Almost all reach the Ball and begin their upward Motion before the Low Point is reached. "Even Tour players," he said.
"They almost all come up, and I'm really kind of surprised when I see them still take a divot."
I asked him for the name of a player who did go all the way down.
"Trevino," he said with a lowered voice and a growl.
"I like that guy. He hits a wedge, and you've got to help him get the club out of the ground!"
Yoda: I have been watching a lot of footage of Traveno after reading this post. I have noticed that at impact he has a very very low trail shoulder relative to other top players. This must mean that the trail arm is also more bent at impact and there would also be more right wrist bend at the same point. Also the super low trail shoulder would lend it self to a more pitch trail elbow at impact as the trail shoulder is closer to the target. The low trail shoulder must also have an effect on the vectors of the trail arm extensor action also. Both as the point of resistance for the right arm extensor action is lower so I would think the force would be more down and THROUGH than down and as the arm is more bent there is more extensor action to put on the ball .
Is the super low trail shoulder at impact the reason that Trevino " went all the way down" and was so good through the ball? What are your thoughts on the points I raise? Thanks.
Yes, the Trevino Right Shoulder Motion through Impact is an extremelyimportant study. Per 7-13, the Right Shoulder must not only stay 'back,'but also down -- down On Plane. Otherwise, you will 'run out of Right Arm'through Impact. In other words, the Right Arm will act as a 'chain' on yourLeft and it simply cannot go through. And so no matter how much you know aboutthe Flat Left Wrist, it cannot be maintained under this circumstance, andso...it Bends! And the Shot -- and perhaps the match -- is lost.
The place to program this move is at Impact Fix (8-2 and 7-8 ). Bypre-positioning your Right Shoulder 'down On Plane,' say almost directlyopposite the Ball -- probably much lower than your presently feel -- youwill be able to extend through the Ball much further until you reach the BothArms Straight Position at the end of the Follow-Through (8-11). When youreturn to Adjusted Address from this position you will notice that you have a'lot of right arm' -- it is quite bent, even with applied extensor action --and that means that as your Right Shoulder turns through the Ball in this muchfarther way -- "chasing it" as Nick Price likes to say -- then theLeft Arm with its Flat Left Wrist can fly through Impact unimpeded by the'chain' of the Straightened Right Arm caused by the too high RightShoulder.
The reverse of this Impact Fix position would be when you prepare for a 6-inchputt. This Stroke -- as in All Strokes -- must be taken to the Both ArmsStraight Position at the end of the Follow-Through. What to do with such ashort Stroke? You pre-position your Follow-Through for the Both ArmsStraight Position almost immediately following Impact. Now your Right Shoulderwill be much higher than the pre-positioning described above. As a result,you'll have a nice firm 'no Quitting (3-F-7-B) Downstroke to the end of yourFollow-Through and your putt will rattle the hole.
By the way, for those who suffer from 'double hit' putts, this last advice isthe solution.
Stay with this idea, Hue. It is really, really key.
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Yoda
[/QUOTE]
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Three Barrel vs. Four Barrel
hue wrote:
YODA
In real terms if you had a 4-barrel player go to a 3-barrel action and master it to the same level of competence. In your opinion, what would be the loss of distance with the driver be if he became a 3-barrel player, if say the guy could crank it out 300 yards with a 4-barrel action? Thanks.
This is a great question and a great post.
The answer is that the Three-Barrel guy would find his ball 290 on thesprinkler heads. The 300-yard Four Barreler likely would be four yards aheadand surrounded by a group of his closest friends...all in the rough..and allstill looking...
P.S. Attention All Four-Barrellers: Do not forget that a lotof what you think you are feeling as Right Arm Thrust...orDrive...or Right Hand through the Ball...or WHATEVER...isnothing more than your very powerful Right Shoulder driving the #4Accumulator through the Right Forearm Flying Wedge throughthe the Ball.
You may feel the 'Power' in your Right Arm or Hand...but the Sourceis your Right Shoulder. Larry Nelson told me this personally fifteenyears ago, and he knows zilch about The Golfing Machine. HeIS a Golfing Machine. Think about it.
Delaware Golf wrote:
Yoda,
You have your distances wrong, if the true 3 barrel swinger can hit 290 yards, the four barrel swinger will be able to hit it 310 to 340 yards. A good 20 to 50 yards better than the true swinger.
290 for the 3 barrel swinger, Yoda, you forgot to add that the wind was at his back and the ball caught a down hill lie!!!
Trust me, put up an accomplished 3 barrel and 4 barrel swinger together the 4 barrel swinger will out drive the 3 barrel swinger, no problem.
Yoda, even your buddy Tom Tomasello said, when the swinger uses right arm thrust he'll ad 20 to 50 yards to his tee shot, I have him saying that on video tape. Tom said it's kind of ridiculus that a right handed/sided person would play the game from the left side, so learn to use that right arm, you have been holding back all these years!!!
DG
Well, DG,
Regarding my yardages, I knocked off a few for the 4-barrel guy because hedidn't catch it flush that time. And I added a few for the 3-barrel guy 'causehis caddy had a strong right foot, which he exercised when the 4-barrelers wereall over in the gunch.
Regarding my friend, the late Tommy Tomasello, all I know is this:
The Man who wrote The Book taught Tommy everything he ever learned aboutTGM;and
The Man said this in writing in his Clampett swing analysis:
"Power Package muscle power (right triceps thrust) can make a minisculecontribution and only with great effort during a swing procedure."
That's good enough for me, and besides, this is where I came in on this one!So...
If you'll excuse me, I'm outa here!
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So Far And Yet So Close
tgmgolfer2k2 wrote:
Great thoughts Yoda.
So if my right shoulder is geometically moving correctly, I should focus on my hands, according to you. That's fine. Should I just feel them going up and down the plane angle? Or what?
I have a problem with my body rotation slowing down when I start focusin on just moving my hands during the swing. Is this just because the pivot isn't fully "programmed" yet? And if so, what will get me "over the hump" to full programming?
Hit some balls today just driving my right shoulder in the inside quad of the ball. Wonderous results. But as you say, trouble may abound should I continue down this exclusive path for too long.
One last thing: when I start using a "pivot feel" to "hit" the ball, the clubshaft will slowly but surely start falling underplane in the downstroke. Is the remedy for this just going back and forth between a "hands" feel and a "pivot" feel? That seems to be what's worked in the past.
Time is short, Robot Buddy R2D2, so let's cut to the chase. You are a goodplayer, a better player than almost anybody in the world -- don't get a BigHead because 99 percent of the Golf World can't break 99. But, at your levelyou want to know how to make it great -- and break 70 consistently! Iunderstand.
Now hear this....
You are not 'setting' the Rigid Right Wrist Bend of the Right Forearm FlyingWedge at Impact Fix and then holding that Rigid Right Wrist Bend throughImpact. Or probably anywhere else for that matter. If you were, given youryouth and dedication to the Game, you would not be posting on this -- or anyother -- Site.
You come to my school, and I will show you how to move the Club. Up and Back onPlane. Down and Out through Impact. With a Magical Right Forearm Flying Wedgeand a Motioness Bent and Level Right Wrist through the Both Arms StraightPosition of the Follow-Through.
Or...
I will give you your money back.
I will need to visit Yoda at the swamp once again!
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
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"the Pivot brings the Right Elbow to the Release Point and then you fire?"
As a beginner hitter, what i am doing from the top now is applying #1 pressure to the left thumb and every thing starts automatically. I guess not at the stage of controlling, sensing when to apply the thurst.
From your comment, does it means that I should work on using the right shoulder down first (since pivot brings ..) or using the left hip shift first?..
Currently I have difficulty making my left arm straight after impact when playing ( have no problem on the driving range), i guess my alignment is wrong on the course.
#5
01-24-2005, 01:12 AM
Yoda
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Wheeling The Big Gun In
Originally Posted by rwh
Just so that I'm understanding correctly, the Pivot brings the Right Elbow to the Release Point and then you fire?
Yes, Bob. From the Top, the Pivot Transports the Power Package to the Release Point.
Then, and only then, does the Right Elbow Fire.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Impact Fix, Steady Head glaring at ball, EA, Trace Club-head Path (important), RFT, Right Shoulder through the ball (waggle above the ball, watch the face), Pick-up FLW, and drive the right shoulder through the ball or at the Aimpoint.
Level Left Wrist makes more solid contact, ball position is important, hands further ahead at Both Arms Straight increases distance and makes a lower trajectory.
The deeper the shoulder drive DOWN, the further the ball goes. Waggle to get comfortable and assure the club head tracing!
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 05-16-2012 at 09:38 PM.
I've been impressed by golfgnome's practice swing over the ball in a couple of the videos here, he said he was monitoring Hinge Action. I still have to work on incorporating that to my routine but when I'm feel "off" on the course I do a couple of short swings monitoring the Hinge Action and in general the next stroke is much better. So maybe you could try to watch the arm (Hinge Action) rather than the club face ?
I've been impressed by golfgnome's practice swing over the ball in a couple of the videos here, he said he was monitoring Hinge Action. I still have to work on incorporating that to my routine but when I'm feel "off" on the course I do a couple of short swings monitoring the Hinge Action and in general the next stroke is much better. So maybe you could try to watch the arm (Hinge Action) rather than the club face ?
I lay down two orange plastic rods as extensions of the Baseline of the Plane and EA/RFT at about a 35 degree or 40 degree angle covering the club head Path, I think this is the Angle of Approach. I then waggle emphasizing the club face. I waggle from Impact Fix and it feels very inside compared to Tracing which is a Swingers technique as you know.
The Swinger's Tracing feels like I am throwing my # 3 PP over my shoulder and a slight tug with a stationary head explodes the ball about a club further though I do not have a lot of confidence as to where the ball would go.
On the course, as a hitter, I just waggle the club face over the ball from Impact Fix and as long as my head is stationary, the ball performs as expected, either straight, fade or draw and some trajector modifications which are exciting. My hits yesterday were very heavy and deep and my question will be about accurate distances off grass usually. Any other insights are appreciated.
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 05-17-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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