TSP or EP at impact is a matter of choise I believe.
I believe Daryl prefers and uses TSP for impact as well. Moe Norman was TSP. But most top golfers today seem to be on EP.
If he is, then I'll search that out to see if you've written about following Moe's TSP.
Unless, you'd like to start a thread. If you don't do it in a day. I'll add it to my "Learning and Teaching...."
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Enjoying the action from afar, guys. Keep it going!
Dont get too far away , we're close to calling in a life line here.
Lynn, Homer's appreciation for and definition of the Elbow Plane evolved over the editions, I believe. The paragraph Hungry Bear astutely referenced from the 6th seems to be incongruous with the definition of the Elbow Plane from the 6th in regard to there being a range of possible Plane Angles for the Elbow Plane. At least as I read it. Maybe I read wrong. It is consistent with the definition of the Elbow Plane from the first edition however. Could there be an editorial "situation" going on here?
From the first edition:
Quote:
10-6-A. ELBOW The location of the Elbow during Impact is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. This alignment not only allows the Right Forearm to move On Plane through the Impact but also allows the torso to be postioned at righ angles to the Plane --which are the unexcelled alignments for Right Arm Power and Control.
Which to me implies there can be a range of Elbow Plane Angles.
From the sixth edition:
Quote:
10-6-0 GENERAL Basic Plane Angles are classified on the basis of reference points on which the Inclined Plane can be set. Five such settings are considered here – three fixed, one moving, one moveable – each named for its particular reference point. Remember the Right Forearm is not “On Plane” unless the Right Elbow also is still – or again – On Plane (2-F).
10-6-A ELBOW Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. It is the “flattest” normal Plane that will still allow the Right Forearm to be On Plane during Impact. This should produce a very flat Angle of Attack (2-B) with reduced Backspin and should be avoided for Short Shots unless it is also part of your Full Stroke Pattern. The Elbow Plane allows maximum #3 Accumulator requiring earlier Release per 6-N-0. This procedure is executed by the Right Forearm per 7-3 and 10-6-B and Elbow Location per 6-B-3-0-1.
Which seems to change to a fixed location for the Elbow Plane as I read it.
And from the sixth edition 7-23 paragraph 3. page 111. And the first edition , 7-23 paragraph 3 page 61:
Quote:
The Straight Line Path is a simpler procedure than the Angled Line Path. But the latter is very natural movement and has the advantage of the true Elbow Plane through Impact. The former can have a steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane compensated with a reaching-out of the arms and a shifting of the Left Hand Grip that places the Clubshaft in the Cup of the Hand instead of under the heel of the Hand, and the Right Hand Grip adjusted to correspond.
*Bold by me.
In other words by latter day Homer definition is there one Elbow Plane?
Thanks O.B.
The problem , as I see it, is the talk about planes is almost always relating Basic Plane's , 7-6 but we are talking about the down swing plane(s) 7-23, delivery path. As I see it, 7-23 paragraph 3 (6th edit.) must be read with care. It says, at least to me, that if you have accumulators #2 and #3 then you have elbow plane to the extent they are used.
It isn't hard for me to get there but I am sure that will stand the hair up on the back of a lot of necks. Shouldn't have said that but it is likely true.??
The Bear
Bear while we wait for clarification .....I believe you are perhaps subject to a change in thinking by Homer regarding the Elbow Plane. He had a fondness for it in the early editions that he didnt share in the latter days. So Id say the fact you cant get aligned on the Elbow Plane is no problem vis a vis Homer. No problem at all actually, especially if you listen to the audio tapes from the early 80's.
Not saying there arent plenty guys who teach it, love it , embrace everything to do with it. But there'd be no hair standing up on the back of my neck or Homers I dont think. Im talking fixed , low Elbow Plane not just any old plane you can get your Right elbow and shaft on.
I must admit that I dont follow you in regard to Accumulator #2 and 3 and the Elbow Plane. Dont be alarmed there's a lot I dont follow. But all planes could have both coudnt they? In that paragraph from 7-23 Homer isnt saying that you must zero out #3 for the "higher" Elbow Planes.
In regard to Plane Angle Variations and Power Package Delivery Paths, one of the notations Yoda made in my 6th edition was on the bottom of page 158 ,right under the pictures of Dianne demonstrating various Shifs. It reads " Relates to 10-23- B/C/D" .
O.B, HK is referring to putting when he says "Steeper than normal Elbow Plane".
Place the Grip in the cup of the Left Hand and adjust the right hand to correspond, then reach out with the arms to move the Right Elbow to the Steeper Plane. Then the Right Elbow, Right Forearm and Clubshaft are on the same Plane throughout the stroke. It's a "Straight Line Path" Elbow Plane. I'm sure that someone can make longer strokes and maybe use a Pivot Stoke too.
TSP or EP at impact is a matter of choise I believe.
I believe Daryl prefers and uses TSP for impact as well. Moe Norman was TSP. But most top golfers today seem to be on EP.
OMGosh! One of the reasons Moe's hands are body-centered, and his hands don't move from their set-up position, is to supercharge by "super-shrinking" the pully system. (I did not see this applied to Moe's swing in "Gotham Golf Blog" or in "The Golf Machinist" but by reading those fine articles in those places, I got the concept and then put it with my own practices and experiences. Any mistakes are mine, solely.)
So I was trying to do TSP back and through with Moe's set-up. I made sure nothing moved by spreading my anchors W-I-D-E. My wrists were high and level! I concentrated on Body-Centered Hands and did as Moe said "I always keep my triangle together...if anything my arms get tighter." Well, if you do the maths, so to speak, the only thing left to feel is the # 3 PP! As a matter of fact, that's all you can feel!
You can feel the # 3 PP so well that you can BREAK IT OFF ON THE BALL!!!! Imagine the Vertically Un-cocking Left Wrist on steroids!!! Imagine compression so focused on your # 3 PP that my heavy impact bag leaves the ground for about a yard with my driver and further with my ZB forged 5 iron. Both impacts were very loud!!
So, if I understand all the terms I think I understand, a "Zero Shift TSP " is possible and it happens pretty damn fast, and all I remember is that I felt as if I bent the shaft in half with my # 3 PP. (When you tell me how I'm off on this one be gentle because I know I'm right about ooohh, perhaps 50% of what I thinking I said. I haven't hit any balls with this yet due to the cold weather. Besides, you know how sensitive I am.)
WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY HERE AND FORGOT TO PUT IN, IS THAT THE "ENDLESS BELT EFFECT" HAS TO BE ON PLANE FOR THE STROKE TO BE DESIGNATED AS "TSP," OR "ELBOW PLANE," IN OTHER WORDS THE PULLEY DETERMINES THE CLASSIFICATION, I THINK.
Holla at your boyyyyyyyyyy!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 12-14-2010 at 12:14 PM.
O.B, HK is referring to putting when he says "Steeper than normal Elbow Plane".
Place the Grip in the cup of the Left Hand and adjust the right hand to correspond, then reach out with the arms to move the Right Elbow to the Steeper Plane. Then the Right Elbow, Right Forearm and Clubshaft are on the same Plane throughout the stroke. It's a "Straight Line Path" Elbow Plane. I'm sure that someone can make longer strokes and maybe use a Pivot Stoke too.
I agree with the zeroing out of #3 Angle in Basic motion but I dont think Homer is talking Basic Motion there in that sentence in 7-23....unusual as that procedure seems.
Chapter 7 deals with the 24 Basic Components, 7-23 deals with the Power Package Delivery Path, " From the Top". The sentence in question deals with Straight Line Path vs Angled Delivery Paths similar I believe to the photos in the similarly numbered 10-23. Straight Line relating to Zero Shift , Angled to Double or Triple. He goes on to discuss Longitudinal and Radial.
D, I may be wrong , its easy to do with this stuff but Id say your definition of the Elbow Plane and Higher Elbow plane in that drawing is consistent with the 1st Edition but not the 3 rd on. Take a look at this photo, is that an Elbow Plane or a TSP Dianne has here Right Forearm on?
The scary part is that I think I understand some of it.
All the black is cut and past - hope I didn't mess-up your context badly!!
From the first edition:
Quote:
10-6-A. ELBOW The location of the Elbow during Impact is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. This alignment not only allows the Right Forearm to move On Plane through the Impact but also allows the torso to be postioned at righ angles to the Plane --which are the unexcelled alignments for Right Arm Power and Control.
Which to me implies there can be a range of Elbow Plane Angles.
From the sixth edition:
Quote:
10-6-0 GENERAL Basic Plane Angles are classified on the basis of reference points on which the Inclined Plane can be set. Five such settings are considered here – three fixed, one moving, one moveable – each named for its particular reference point. Remember the Right Forearm is not “On Plane” unless the Right Elbow also is still – or again – On Plane (2-F).
10-6-A ELBOW Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. It is the “flattest” normal Plane that will still allow the Right Forearm to be On Plane during Impact. This should produce a very flat Angle of Attack (2-B) with reduced Backspin and should be avoided for Short Shots unless it is also part of your Full Stroke Pattern. The Elbow Plane allows maximum #3 Accumulator requiring earlier Release per 6-N-0. This procedure is executed by the Right Forearm per 7-3 and 10-6-B and Elbow Location per 6-B-3-0-1.
Which seems to change to a fixed location for the Elbow Plane as I read it.
I think (my thinking) HK changed his frame of Ref. from defining EP at impact to EP at set-up
And from the sixth edition 7-23 paragraph 3. page 111. And the first edition , 7-23 paragraph 3 page 61:
Quote:
The Straight Line Path is a simpler procedure than the Angled Line Path. But the latter is very natural movement and has the advantage of the true Elbow Plane through Impact. The former can have a steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane compensated with a reaching-out of the arms and a shifting of the Left Hand Grip that places the Clubshaft in the Cup of the Hand instead of under the heel of the Hand, and the Right Hand Grip adjusted to correspond.
*Bold by me.
Again I think HK was saying you can have a EP while on TSP but you must zero accumulator #3 and adjust grip accordingly
In other words by latter day Homer definition is there one Elbow Plane?
________________________________________
I must admit that I dont follow you in regard to Accumulator #2 and 3 and the Elbow Plane. Dont be alarmed there's a lot I dont follow. But all planes could have both coudnt they? In that paragraph from 7-23 Homer isnt saying that you must zero out #3 for the "higher" Elbow Planes.
That is my thinking- You MUST have an “elbow” plane to have #2 and #3
In regard to Plane Angle Variations and Power Package Delivery Paths, one of the notations Yoda made in my 6th edition was on the bottom of page 158 ,right under the pictures of Dianne demonstrating various Shifs. It reads " Relates to 10-23- B/C/D"
I will not dare speak for Yoda and he is likely near enough to answer the question but I will assume that the note was meant to tie the demonstrated plane shifts on 158 to the plane shifts of 10-23 “Angled” lines
She has the Forearm resting on the TSP. But Her Right Arm Wedge is not On-Plane. Her Right Wrist is Fully Uncocked. The Purpose of the Photo is to illustrate the Angle of the TSP. In that it does that well is sufficient for the Photograph.
The Wedges have a very Specific Alignment to one another. But, is everyone aware that the Wedges also need to be aligned to the Swing-Plane? The Alignment to the Plane is substantially different on the TSP than on the Elbow Plane.
In 10-23 HK was explaining how to keep the Elbow Plane Alignment of the Wedges onto a Steeper Plane in order to use a Straight Line Path.
Guys I know we're supposed to be talking about Exit Plane but .......this is good stuff, it does relate. " What exactly are the Elbow and TSP planes. "
They get used really loosely , lets tighten em up definition wise. Its necessary, Id say, for proper discussions. Man I used to give Mike O a hard time about always defining things before discussing .........now Im Mr. Definition too. It works well at home too..... "Ah Honey what exactly do you mean when you tell me to "shut up" ? "
Anyhow ,if one of you have a picture from the yellow book for 10-6-A Elbow Plane please put it up. You'll see the Plane Board runs from the ball to the point where Diane's Right Elbow touches her side.
Quote:
10-6-A ELBOW Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. It is the “flattest” normal Plane that will still allow the Right Forearm to be On Plane during Impact. This should produce a very flat Angle of Attack (2-B) with reduced Backspin and should be avoided for Short Shots unless it is also part of your Full Stroke Pattern. The Elbow Plane allows maximum #3 Accumulator requiring earlier Release per 6-N-0. This procedure is executed by the Right Forearm per 7-3 and 10-6-B and Elbow Location per 6-B-3-0-1.
I dunno, I could be way wrong but it seems like there's one place where the elbow touches the side and a whole range of plane angles which the Right Forearm and Clubshaft can get on (between TSP and Elbow theoretically, if not practically).
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