I know that HK states that the right forearm supports the primary lever assembly in hitters and only the clubshaft in swingers, but I cannot clearly envisage the difference because I think that the left arm and clubshaft are essentially in the same plane during the late backstroke when the hands are reaching shoulder height (as the left arm flying wedge), and that if the right forearm is held at right angles to the primary lever assembly it is also at right angles to the clubshaft. Am I wrong?
Jeff.
Ok so bottom line according to Mr. Kelley Hitting is PUSHING . . . Swinging is PULLING. So you have to get your right forearm in a relationship to the lever assembly being loaded to do just that.
With Hitting the right forearm is going to DRIVE the structured unit of the left arm and shaft through the ball ala a 2x4 . . .
With Swinging you are pulling the club LONGITUDINALLY. So you are pulling the the shaft or really the longitudinal center of grativity. Homer describes it as pulling an arrow out of a quiver.
Neil - you state that one institutes a 1/4 turn of the clubface by the end-takeaway and after that there is only rotation.
Neil referenced the position where the club is parallel to the ground (where it is also parallel to the plane line). This is Section 5 of the 12 Sections in Chapter 8.
Originally Posted by Jeff
How does one turn the clubface 1/4 turn if not by rotation?
The clubface can turn by swivel (forearm rotation), only; right forearm takeaway, only; body rotation (pivot), only; or, combinations thereof.
Originally Posted by Jeff
What is the difference in rotary technique employed in turning the clubface 1/4 turn during the start-up swivel versus the technique of rotation of the left arm/forearm that occurs throughout the remainder of the backstroke?
None, if we restrict the discussion to opeining the clubface by rotating the forearms.
The left hand/leading edge of the clubface begin at approximately 90° to the plane line at address. At the top, the left hand/leading edge are laying on the plane angle (in Mr. Appleby's case, the Turned Shoulder Plane). The forearms need not rotate any more than to accomplish this.
Once you reach Station 5, the forearms have rotated enough to allow the left wrist/leading edge of the clubface to open about 90° such that they are now more or less parallel to the plane line. From Station 5 to the Top (8-6), the right forearm is pulling the club back, up and in (on-plane) with the result that the left hand will lay on the plane angle without much more, if any, forearm rotatation. In my own case, I have almost no further forearm rotation. Do some very slow motion backswings watching only your forearms and I think you find this is the case. The combination of pivot and right forearm movement is post-Station 5 "rotation" to which Neil referred.
You wrote-: "Ok so bottom line according to Mr. Kelley Hitting is PUSHING . . . Swinging is PULLING. So you have to get your right forearm in a relationship to the lever assembly being loaded to do just that."
If there is different loading positions of the right forearm at the top (presuming a 10:30 o'clock left arm top position) in a hitter versus a swinger, could you clearly demonstrate the differences? Are those photos supposed to demonstrate a particular point?
rwh
I have no problem understanding how you rotate your left/right forearm based on your description and how the left hand lies on the inclined plane at the top. However, you have not delineated the difference in forearm rotation between hitters versus swingers during the backstroke and described the exact right forearm alignment at the 10:30 o'clock position in both hitters and swingers.
However, you have not delineated the difference in forearm rotation between hitters versus swingers during the backstroke and described the exact right forearm alignment at the 10:30 o'clock position in both hitters and swingers.
Jeff.
Jeff,
Ideally the right forearm alignment is 90 degrees to the loading action.
Is this a test?
__________________
Bagger
1-H "Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available - but separately, and probably endlessly." Homer Kelly
Look at the pics I did last year...they may not be "pure" TGM but they should allow you to experience the differences that are being described....it work best if you make a definite effort to go to "end" when swinging (so that you feel the force is "behind"you...and go to right shoulder high and minimum left wrist cock when doing the hitting (so that you can push it)... remember that the book is about forces - and you just have to experience them....the book provides lots of descriptions....
So look at the pictures I did...imagine that you have not read any of the golf books or web forum stuff that you have digested .
If someone said to you push (as in the hitter) against the elastic bungee in a straight line towards the ball...in such a way that your head stays pretty steady and you are in balance....push so that you feel almost all your effort is in your right triceps...
Try it in a variety of ways until you have found what feels to you to be the most mechanically sound way to push...THEN look at your right forearm and elbow position....it will be in a semi "flying elbow" position...with the force applied to the aft part of the shaft... then read the 7-3 bit again...
Now do the same with the swingers photo...forget about golf...just ask your body to pull the force which is on the top side of the shaft...using your lower body to feel and initiate the pull... NOW look at your right elbow...it is in different position to the hitter because it is mechanically more advantageous when pulling to do it that way...
If you get that bit then you are there....you identify different right elbow and forearm positions at loading....so to arrive at that position you should have a backswing that is heading in that specific direction...and a downswing right forearm that continues to maximise the mechanics....the swinger readily goes to pitch and the hitter readily goes to punch elbow position.... all of those positions/alignments are there as a consequence of lag loading and efficiency.
You wrote-: "Ok so bottom line according to Mr. Kelley Hitting is PUSHING . . . Swinging is PULLING. So you have to get your right forearm in a relationship to the lever assembly being loaded to do just that."
If there is different loading positions of the right forearm at the top (presuming a 10:30 o'clock left arm top position) in a hitter versus a swinger, could you clearly demonstrate the differences? Are those photos supposed to demonstrate a particular point?
Question 1 . . . Yes . . . place the flesh pad of the the index finger aft or on the back of the grip or whatever you wanna call it. Take the club back and leave the pressure there . . . no movement in the pressure . . . now go a little farther back when the weight of the sweetspot falls past a certain point the pressure moves from the fleshy pad to the joint/knuckle. That's all. From there you just pull it down. In swinging the pressure moves from the pad to the knuckle as the inertia of the sweetspot going further back falls on the knuckle. Not a big deal.
Question 2 . . . Sure . . . Look at the respective elbow positions and the positions of the clubhead at top . . . look at the elbow positions at release point. There are clearly differences. Is one Swinging and one Hitting? Probably . . . Tell me what you see . . .
Question for you . . . what do YOU think about the loading? Legitimate or not?
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Aloha Mr. Hand
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Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 04-25-2008 at 10:25 PM.
I have no problem understanding how you rotate your left/right forearm based on your description and how the left hand lies on the inclined plane at the top. However, you have not delineated the difference in forearm rotation between hitters versus swingers during the backstroke and described the exact right forearm alignment at the 10:30 o'clock position in both hitters and swingers.
Jeff.
Prepare to hit a hard pitch shot where you are going to use your right arm to PUNCH the ball with your elbow in punch position. Take the club back and then take it down and stop at release point. From there take the club to the top of your backstroke at 10:30 as you have said.
Do the same thing but this time . . . lead deeper with your right elbow more infront of your right hip ala Pitch Elbow as Homer has described it. Stop. Now take it to the top from there.
Is there a difference in the right forearm alignment? Remember ALL GEOMETRY IS DERIVED FROM IMPACT GEOMETRY . . . including the Right Elbow location/Basic Stroke. So if you intend to have your elbow in a Punch Basic Stroke alignment your Top should comply with that alignment . . . and vicey versey with Pitch. Work from Impact back . . . that's why Fix is so important.
Bagger - thanks for referring me to that video. I enjoyed it. However, it still doesn't help me understand the difference between loading in swinging versus hitting. I can understand why Yoda states that the swinger loads against the top of the shaft with his PP3 when he eventually gets to the end position. However, what happens if a swinger decides to limit his backstroke to the top position (hands opposite the right shoulder like a hitter) because he cannot get a full shoulder turn. Then his PP3 position could be said to be behind the shaft - like a hitter. In that situation, I cannot understand the difference between a swinger (who has limited his backstroke to the top position and doesn't get to the end position) and hitter. It would seem to me that the PP3 point (established when gripping the club at address) aways contacts the shaft at the same point in a swinger, but it is called "under" the shaft or "behind" the shaft depending on where the clubshaft is located in space. However, a different semantic label doesn't necessarily imply different biomechanical loading actions in a swinger versus hitter - or does it?
Jeff.
If you just take the club to left arm parallel to the ground you can still load the pressure point differently due to the loading of left wrist vs. the left elbow. There is less cocking/loading in hitting this the loading of the pressure point stays aft . . . again . . . depends on the impact geometry . . . punch vs. pitch . . . you CAN hit with pitch but is it advisable . . .Homer would say nope.
I have no problem understanding how you rotate your left/right forearm based on your description and how the left hand lies on the inclined plane at the top. However, you have not delineated the difference in forearm rotation between hitters versus swingers during the backstroke and described the exact right forearm alignment at the 10:30 o'clock position in both hitters and swingers. Jeff.
The difference in forearm rotation is that Hitter's forearm gradually and continuously rotates to the Top, whereas the Swinger goes through a sequence. The backswing sequence is (1) start up swivel and (2) backward karate chop to the Top (with no swivel). The downswing sequence is (3) forward karate chop (with no swivel) and (3) release swivel. The start up and release swivels are easy to see, since they occur in a short distance, whereas you never really notice a swivel with the hitter.
The position of the right arm at Section 6 is a function of how and when you set your Flying Wedges. If you watch Lynn Blake, he set's up with the Flying Wedges in place at Address and keeps them there. Unless you look for some other tip-off, start up swivel for example, you can't tell the difference in right arm position at Section 6 whether he's Hitting or Swinging. This is because the right forearm flying wedge should always be at right angles to the left arm flying wedge. This is going to look the same, Hitting or Swinging.
If your arms are hanging straight down at address and you don't have a clue and/or don't care about flying wedges, then the right forearm will probably appear to be more vertical with a swinger. But Hitters (Ted Fort) almost always set up with Flying Wedges assembled (right forearm in line with and at right angles to the shaft) and they stay that way from start up to impact.
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