Do "finish swivel" by the book (TGM) and the face should rest back on the plane just like it did on the backstroke/downstroke. Works well and may be "geometrically" correct.
If you do the finish swivel the "ben doyle" way it is technically "off plane" because it is now facing more towards the target than the plane but 2 things will happen:
1) you will hit the ball lower
2) you will hit the ball farther (smash factor)
I have proved this via launch monitors time and time again. It's just like "someone" said in an online video, "sometimes you want to maximize compression and sometimes you don't."
__________________
I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
Do "finish swivel" by the book (TGM) and the face should rest back on the plane just like it did on the backstroke/downstroke. Works well and may be "geometrically" correct.
If you do the finish swivel the "ben doyle" way it is technically "off plane" because it is now facing more towards the target than the plane but 2 things will happen:
1) you will hit the ball lower
2) you will hit the ball farther (smash factor)
I have proved this via launch monitors time and time again. It's just like "someone" said in an online video, "sometimes you want to maximize compression and sometimes you don't."
Thanks Jim for providing information from your launch monitor experiments. A few queries if you don't mind. Can hitting the ball futher with this "over-roll" (Ben Doyle style) still produce a straight shot, or will it give the ball hook spin? Also, TGM says there's no Compression Leakage (except Backspin) with Horizontal Hinging. Do you think this is also true if you over-roll? When you say you will hit the ball further, do you mean carry distance, or carry plus roll?
Thanks Jim for providing information from your launch monitor experiments. A few queries if you don't mind. Can hitting the ball futher with this "over-roll" (Ben Doyle style) still produce a straight shot, or will it give the ball hook spin?
I am one of the straightest hitters of the ball i know, so i have no problem hitting the ball as dead straight as possible with this 'over rolling' issue. In fact, despite what others may say, i can even FADE the ball with this type of "swivel." The key though is you have to draw a straight plane line. Start 'bending' that plane line out to the right and it will be FOOOOOOOOOORE LEFT!
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Also, TGM says there's no Compression Leakage (except Backspin) with Horizontal Hinging. Do you think this is also true if you over-roll?
I'll admit i'm not physics guru, far from it. But all i know is that if you do it "by the book" there isn't as much "smash" as there is with supposed "over rolling." Email me @ koby12@gmail.com and i'll give you a link to a video that has pretty solid evidence.
Quote:
When you say you will hit the ball further, do you mean carry distance, or carry plus roll?
Probably both. All i'm saying is that with the same amount of speed and "effort" the ball will have more ball speed with the "ben doyle" swivel style. Do i know why? No. Can i prove it scientifically? No. All i have is a pretty convincing video and my launch monitor numbers.
Hope that helps
__________________
I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
Nice post Jim,I would imagine(hell i know)it is difficult to feel what is happening in that millisecond.What I learned this weekend at old waverley was the difference between practice and play -and to look 'look 'look.If I practice acquired motion I have a tendency to underroll- IF i really try -normally i would flip or angle hinge.So i try to imagine the "watch to the ground" position -which is fine as long as i don't actually do it (UNLESS I WANT TO) . I just think the "feel"side of TGM is underrated -but not by the master YODA,or TED ,or V.J.orJEFF!You MUST BE bang on plane
I am one of the straightest hitters of the ball i know, so i have no problem hitting the ball as dead straight as possible with this 'over rolling' issue. In fact, despite what others may say, i can even FADE the ball with this type of "swivel." The key though is you have to draw a straight plane line. Start 'bending' that plane line out to the right and it will be FOOOOOOOOOORE LEFT!
I'll admit i'm not physics guru, far from it. But all i know is that if you do it "by the book" there isn't as much "smash" as there is with supposed "over rolling." Email me @ koby12@gmail.com and i'll give you a link to a video that has pretty solid evidence.
Probably both. All i'm saying is that with the same amount of speed and "effort" the ball will have more ball speed with the "ben doyle" swivel style. Do i know why? No. Can i prove it scientifically? No. All i have is a pretty convincing video and my launch monitor numbers.
Hope that helps
Hmm?
Just proves that a hands manipulated swinger with great hand-eye coordination (even Tiger) can create any ball flight. Wish I could.
Horizontal hinging is a closing only motion. The motion starts a few inches before impact (slightly open clubface) and ends about a foot after low point (slightly closed clubface). It’s a smooth and mild closing motion because the hands-clubshaft-clubface are moving downward-outward-forward on plane (even past low point) and the radius of the hinge is from the left shoulder. The closing is mild both in degrees and rate from the beginning to end during its’ approximately fifteen inch impact travel. Therefore, hinging cannot account for radical ball flight inconsistencies. The finish swivel occurs after finish. It’s important to keep hinging and finish swivel separate.
Study Bens’ pictures. If his right wrist is flattening, then his left wrist is bending. Can’t have one without the other using a strong single action grip. Do I see a slight amount of chicken wing? Where are “BOTH ARMS STRAIGHT FULL EXTENSION” and extensor action. See 9-2-11 #1 and 9-2-11 #2.
Look at Lynn Blake picture #8: perfect horizontal hinge…. Look at the clubface in #8: end of on plane horizontal hinge. Precise follow-through position after hinge. Both arms straight. #9 and #10 and #11 are on plane swivel.
Doyle's "chicken wing" is not actually a chicken wing. It's a result of what happens when you swivel with a flat left wrist through the ball. The left arm bends much quicker at the elbow.
Just because your right wrist "un bends" a little doesn't mean that you're left wrist becomes bent.
I can swing throughout the entire swing with a flat left wrist with a tac-tic on if you want and you'll never hear it click.
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I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
From my experiences with that damn tac-tic you need to bend a good 10 degrees before it will click. Not to say I don't believe you can keep a flat left wrist whilst swiveling dramatically. I just don't know that the tac-tic is the ultimate test.
From my experiences with that damn tac-tic you need to bend a good 10 degrees before it will click. Not to say I don't believe you can keep a flat left wrist whilst swiveling dramatically. I just don't know that the tac-tic is the ultimate test.
Matt
When you "double loop" the loop it becomes EXTREMELY SENSITIVE and will click ever so slightest amount of bend.
I'm not advocating to swing with a flat left wrist throughout the entire swing as i feel it did create some shoulder issues for me a little. However i can still do it w/o much issue.
__________________
I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
There is a video on Peter Croker's site in which someone swings a golfer's flail, 2k-4 and 2k-5. The person swinging the flail states that if the club is not swung properly, the swing will get "lumpy". Although the instructor doesn't use the term swivel,I believe that "lumpy" referred to a lack of swivel. Lately, I find that executing the golfer's flail, taking out the lump, results in better rotation. Nevertheless, I am probably initiating the swivel during impact.
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