"Third Rail" topics

[HungryBear]

Things I like to see discussed:

“THINGS” That will either raise your IRE or be to your DELIGHT or simply Open your incubator.

#4 accumulator doesn’t work that way!
Basic stroke curriculum (12-5) is not for beginners.
Hogan’s tilted lower plane feel is real.
Hogan’s “banded” arms feel has real value.
A shift to the elbow plane is necessary to use #3-#2.

That is a quick, one minute, list! There is always more.

Merry Christmas to All.

The Bear

[brianmontgomery2000]

I'd add:

Right arm "thrust" to hit or really "throw" (hard to fan and thrust)
D-plane -- relevant or not? (and what became of A, B & C?)

[Yoda]

Things I like to see discussed:

“THINGS” That will either raise your IRE or be to your DELIGHT or simply Open your incubator.

#4 accumulator doesn’t work that way!
Basic stroke curriculum (12-5) is not for beginners.
Hogan’s tilted lower plane feel is real.
Hogan’s “banded” arms feel has real value.
A shift to the elbow plane is necessary to use #3-#2.

That is a quick, one minute, list! There is always more.

#4 accumulator doesn’t work that way!

You lost me there, Bear. What way?

Basic stroke curriculum (12-5) is not for beginners.

The Basic Motion Curriculum, Stage One (12-5-1) starts with the Grip (12-5-1 #1). What could be more basic (or important)?

Hogan’s tilted lower plane feel is real.

For the 95 percent of golfers who come 'over-the-top', I couldn't agree more! But remember, that Feel is of the Inside-Out Angle of Approach (of the Clubhead) and On Plane Thrust (of the Right Forearm and Lag Pressure), not of a shifted (to the right) Baseline of the Inclined Plane.

Hogan’s “banded” arms feel has real value.

I strongly disagree. Both the illustration and the 'feel' it creates should come with a warning label.

The 'banding' of the arms with its 'together' elbows destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and its in-line support of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. This is damaging at Address -- it's okay, Tim Clark, you can stick with it! -- but it is disastrous at the Top (fortunately, by this time, Tim has reorganized) and fatal at Impact.

Hogan had the correct Feel -- which involves a tension in the upper arms that caused them to adhere more closely to the chest -- but he didn't tell us how he did it. Worse, he left us an illustration guaranteed to create the wrong feel!



Hogan got his Feel by using the Extensor Action (6-B-1-D) of his Right and Left Triceps to stretch his Left Arm. That action creates a stretching Tension Force -- the same as that present in the structure of suspension bridges -- in the upper arms that also causes them to move marginally closer together and thus adhere more closely to the chest.

Unfortunately, in Five Lessons, that Force (Non-Accelerating Thrust / 6-C-0 #2) was misinterpreted (and illustrated) as a Compression Force -- the exact opposite of a Tension Force -- one created by bringing the elbows 'in' toward each other. This action results in a horizontal, squeezed condition of the arms and not an in-line stretched condition. Both actions create upper arm tension and upper body adherence, but whereas the Tension Force creates Power Package Alignment and Structure, the Compression Force destroys it. So, if you want to feel what Hogan felt, do what he did, not what he said he did.




A shift to the elbow plane is necessary to use #3-#2.

The Release of the Hand Power Accumulators (Uncock and Roll) occurs 'On Line', i.e., on the Straight Plane Line (the Third Imperative / 2-0 #B-3). The Plane Angle itself is the player's option. It is perfectly possible for the Right Forearm and Hands to remain on the Turned Shoulder Plane through Impact.

[Photo to Follow.]

[joe curtis]

i would like to know the differences of two swing styles. the one that goes down the line, and the one that goes left.

[HungryBear]

[Yoda's Note: This is Hungry Bear's response to my reply to his Post #1. His originating Thread points are in Black Bold. My responses are in Blue. His responses to my responses are in Red. Enjoy!]

************************************************** *


#4 accumulator doesn’t work that way!

You lost me there, Bear. What way?

"Prying" the arm of the chest gives me a short shoulder. Pulling the left shoulder has leverage.

Basic stroke curriculum (12-5) is not for beginners.

The Basic Motion Curriculum, Stage One (12-5-1) starts with the Grip (12-5-1 #1). What could be more basic (or important)?

If I dont know how it will fit into a total motion I will have wasted my time because Everything has to fit.

Hogan’s tilted lower plane feel is real.

For the 95 percent of golfers who come 'over-the-top', I couldn't agree more! But remember, the 'Feel' is of the Inside-Out Angle of Approach (of the Clubhead) and the On Plane Thrust of the Right Forearm (and Lag Pressure), not of a shifted (to the right) Baseline of the Inclined Plane.

I believe that is the feel of the plane the hands ride on.

Hogan’s “banded” arms feel has real value.

I strongly disagree. Both the illustration and the 'feel' it creates should come with a warning label.

The 'banding' of the arms with its 'together' elbows destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and its in-line support of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. This is damaging at Address -- it's okay, Tim Clark, you can stick with it! -- but it is disastrous at the Top (fortunately, Tim reorganizes there) and fatal at Impact.

Hogan had the correct Feel -- which involves a tension in the upper arms that caused them to adhere more closely to the chest -- but he didn't tell us how he did it. Worse, he left us an illustration guaranteed to create the wrong feel!

Hogan got his Feel by using the Extensor Action (6-B-1-D) of his Right and Left Triceps to stretch his Left Arm. That action creates a stretching Tension Force -- the same that is present in the structure of suspension bridges -- in the upper arms that also causes them to move marginally closer together and thus adhere more closely to the chest.

Unfortunately, in Five Lessons, that Force (Non-Accelerating Thrust / 6-C-0 #2) was misinterpreted (and illustrated) as a Compression Force -- the exact opposite of a Tension Force -- one created by bringing the elbows 'in' toward each other. This action results in a horizontal, compressed condition and not an in-line stretched condition. Both actions create upper arm tension and upper body adherence, but whereas the Tension Force creates Power Package Alignment and Structure, the Compression Force destroys it. So, if you want to feel what Hogan felt, do what he did, not what he said he did.



[/url]

I am just going to sratch th surface. I feel this was his extensor action. Put your hand against the front edge of your desk, you can push away like a punch or you can push away by rolling your right elbow under. 2 different tricep muscles. the second provides an effortless stretch and all 4 components of extensor action. The first is a DISASTER that creates tension and does none of the extensor components.

A shift to the elbow plane is necessary to use #3-#2.

The Release of the Hand Power Accumulators (Uncock and Roll) occurs 'On Line', i.e., on the Straight Plane Line (the Third Imperative / 2-0 #B-3). The Plane Angle itself is the player's option. It is perfectly possible for the Right Forearm and Hands to remain on the Turned Shoulder Plane through Impact.

[Editors note: Apparently no response from The Bear.]

[brianmontgomery2000]

That whole "connected" idea (I was a Ballard follower when I first started playing in the 80's) I believe has led to most of the problems I have with swaying and ultimately flipping.

[Yoda]

i would like to know the differences of two swing styles. the one that goes down the line, and the one that goes left.

In a Rhythmic, On Plane Golf Stroke, the orbiting Clubhead moves outward -- to the right and towards the Plane Line -- until it reaches its Low Point. Then, and only then, does it begin its journey inward -- to the left and away from the Plane Line.

The Flatter the 'exit' Plane Angle (after Impact), the more 'left' the Stroke will appear. But, this is a matter of Plane Angle, not Plane Line. The liberating truth is . . .

In a geometrically-correct Golf Stroke, the Clubhead never moves away from the Plane Line before Low Point, and it never moves toward the Plane Line after Low Point. So, it's Swing right, and then, Swing left.



As a simplified alternative . . .

Trace the Straight Line Baseline of YOUR Inclined Plane!

[Yoda]

That whole "connected" idea (I was a Ballard follower when I first started playing in the 80's) I believe has led to most of the problems I have with swaying and ultimately flipping.

The true idea of "connected" is Lag and Drag. That is, in an efficient Golf Stroke, each lagging Component puts a drag on its preceding, or leading, Component -- in both directions. In other words, from Address (and its Pre-Shot Routine) to the Finish and at all points in between (from Feet to Clubhead), you feel the Drag of the Lagging Clubhead.

Connection is all about Sequencing the various Components of the Total Motion to create the mandatory Lag Pressures.

It most assuredly is not about creating static and artificial pressures of one body part against another. In fact . . .

That way lies sorrow.

[Yoda]

I am just going to sratch th surface. I feel this was his extensor action. Put your hand against the front edge of your desk, you can push away like a punch or you can push away by rolling your right elbow under. 2 different tricep muscles. the second provides an effortless stretch and all 4 components of extensor action. The first is a DISASTER that creates tension and does none of the extensor components.

Great link to a Greg McHatton ("The Hat") video. Thanks, Bear!

However . . .

I must note that, except in the four seconds when he demonstrates the contrived 'elbows twisted inward' misalignment (0.55-0.59 of the video), at no time do Greg's arms appear 'banded together.' Instead, his Arm Action is simple and natural: Each Arm is independent (in Structure), yet unified (in Purpose). As were Ben Hogan's. The difference between the demo and the actual is dramatic . . . and instructive.

Other than that brief demo of the Five Lessons 'yarned' arrangement, Greg's arms exhibit the true alignments. They are not the hand-me-downs of a 'classic', yet seriously deficient text.

As I said above . . .

Do what they do.



P.S. For the record, Greg was one of five students in our January 1982 Master Class with Homer Kelley. I respected him then as a wonderful Champion Golfer, but I respect him even more now as a Champion Golf Instructor. Though we've had no contact since -- that is about to change! -- I've been privileged, through the miracle of the Internet, to become reacquainted with him and to observe his style of teaching. Congrats, Greg, for all you've done in your career these many years since. Most especially, thank you for your contributions to Homer's legacy. It was the road 'least traveled by', but the one that made all the difference. http://www.psalm40.org/bobfrost.html

[HungryBear]

Great link to a Greg McHatton ("The Hat") video. Thanks, Bear!

However . . .

I must note that, except in the four seconds when he demonstrates the contrived 'elbows twisted inward' misalignment (0.55-0.59 of the video), at no time do Greg's arms appear 'banded together.' Instead, his Arm Action is simple and natural: Each Arm is independent (in Structure), yet unified (in Purpose). As were Ben Hogan's. The difference between the demo and the actual is dramatic . . . and instructive.

Other than that brief demo of the Five Lessons 'yarned' arrangement, Greg's arms exhibit the true alignments. They are not the hand-me-downs of a 'classic', yet seriously deficient text.

As I said above . . .

Do what they do.



P.S. For the record, Greg was one of five students in our January 1982 Master Class with Homer Kelley. I respected him then as a wonderful Champion Golfer, but I respect him even more now as a Champion Golf Instructor. Though we've had no contact since -- that is about to change! -- I've been privileged, through the miracle of the Internet, to become reacquainted with him and to observe his style of teaching. Congrats, Greg, for all you've done in your career these many years since. Most especially, thank you for your contributions to Homer's legacy. It was the road 'least traveled by', but the one that made all the difference. http://www.psalm40.org/bobfrost.html

Sorry about not including the proper note on what Black, Blue and red meant. Thank you for the explanation.

Agree, you are correct BUT The feeling that Hogan conveyed is important. And that is all that is good because he does not do as he feels.
Yoda, you win the prize hands down for precision alignment knowledge. BUT I have to give the prize for conveying the feel in the golf stroke to -first place, Ben Doyle and then hogan.

Merry Christmas

The "Jolly Old" Bear