I have a better wager. You get a player and a Trackman. Spend one day with him. I get him the next day and spend one hour with him. Let him be the judge.
I'm only trying to make a simple point. Low Point is needed to determine the Angle of Approach. Clubhead "Path" is not AOA. So, be aware that "Trackman" numbers will be very exaggerated and often beyond usefulness. Knowing the AOA will help narrow down the possible Swing Flaw(s). Using HK's geometry of the Circle, AOA rarely exceeds 1.5 degrees unless the Ball is positioned behind center of stance. Trackman correlates but I would read those numbers with a large dose of caution and "Cause-effect". This is where a little knowledge will do a lot of damage and a lot of knowledge will do less.
I would argue that until a player becomes somewhat skilful, that Trackman should stay on the shelf. Maybe much longer.
Understanding the geometry is the first step to identifying the critical alignments of the shot. Ball Location (AOA), Hookface (Face-alignment), Swing Plane (Shaft), Stance Width (Shaft Lean), Hinge Action, etc, etc.
I'm not criticizing "Trackmans" potential use as a tool, but it's no substitute for understanding the geometry and physics of Impact and it won't teach you these things.
Honestly, you can help a 15 handicap player reduce his play by 10 strokes simply by teaching him/her the "Right Forearm Angle of Approach" and "Hinge Action". About 15 minutes. I can only assume that it's not being taught because most TGM instructors aren't aware of or don't understand. How much better can you do? The teacher in the above video claims that "Drivers" and "Irons" need different swings. That is what Trackman has done. More confusion, misinformation and another decade of misguided teaching. Good luck with your purchase.
TGM is not invention. HK invented very little. It's about ten's of thousands of observations, definitions and codifications and much more. He didn't invent Hinging, nor RFAOA, or Sweep Release or even the Magic of the Right Forearm. These things were being done for hundred of years before HK wrote the book. A Golf-club and Golfer 200 years ago were subject to the same "Laws" governing the Swing today. "Law" and "Technique" are not the same.
I tune in to this channel almost everyday in a search for the truth, although I post very little. You said in post 33 that Homer would have used trackman as a doorstop. You also said you wouldnt spend a nickel on a teacher who uses trackman. Well by my count 38 nationally known teachers, 43 professionals, 37 manufacturers and 39 universities use trackman. Thats a pretty impressive list of fools and I still dont understand this acrimony??? You mention observations resulted in TGM. My point is the observations are still continuing and to reject new observations out of hand is a thin argument (almost invisible). I dont believe trackman is the end all but it seems to be more than a doorstop. Why not observe some more???
38 nationally known teachers,
43 professionals,
37 manufacturers and
39 universities use trackman.
157 X $25,000.00 = $3,925,000.00
Cost of a used TGM 6th Edition : $5.00
The "Truth" are the Laws that govern impact and ball response. Trackman doesn't use Low Point which is needed to calculate the AOA. It's an Aid, but not a substitute for knowledge.
Don't make Trackman out to be something it's not. If you want to teach a different swing for every club in the bag, then that's your interpretation, but not Trackman. The guy in the Video is using Trackman to justify his own beliefs and teaching method. That's not observation.
The "Truth" are the Laws that govern impact and ball response. Trackman doesn't use Low Point which is needed to calculate the AOA. It's an Aid, but not a substitute for knowledge.
Don't make Trackman out to be something it's not. If you want to teach a different swing for every club in the bag, then that's your interpretation, but not Trackman. The guy in the Video is using Trackman to justify his own beliefs and teaching method. That's not observation.
Not a fair comparison. Not comparing apples to apples. You need to go:
157 * $5.00 = $785.00
There, that brings the cost of TGM much more in line with TM.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
The "Truth" are the Laws that govern impact and ball response. Trackman doesn't use Low Point which is needed to calculate the AOA. It's an Aid, but not a substitute for knowledge.
Don't make Trackman out to be something it's not. If you want to teach a different swing for every club in the bag, then that's your interpretation, but not Trackman. The guy in the Video is using Trackman to justify his own beliefs and teaching method. That's not observation.
When I say I would like for you to set up with a Trackman behind you when you do your videos, I am serious. I sincerely would like to see the numbers on your correct execution. You can rent a trackman for short duration. Wont trackman give a set of numbers that repeat if your stroke repeats? Wont there be some measurable data we can use? Your trackman numbers then, whether it captures the geometry perfectly or not, will give us more observations about how to correctly apply the geometric knowlege. I am not a stack and tilter but it seems they are making a similar video to be released soon that incorporates trackman. Would like to see that done from a more pure TGM approach. Your thoughts?
When I say I would like for you to set up with a Trackman behind you when you do your videos, I am serious. I sincerely would like to see the numbers on your correct execution. You can rent a trackman for short duration. Wont trackman give a set of numbers that repeat if your stroke repeats? Wont there be some measurable data we can use? Your trackman numbers then, whether it captures the geometry perfectly or not, will give us more observations about how to correctly apply the geometric knowlege. I am not a stack and tilter but it seems they are making a similar video to be released soon that incorporates trackman. Would like to see that done from a more pure TGM approach. Your thoughts?
I would hope that Trackman will record the Ball Flights accurately and compute any minor differences in Geometry. That's not the problem. But, a problem does exist if you look at the numbers in the above video and conclude that a Driver should be swung with a different geometry than a Nine Iron. That they can be different is not the problem either. That they "Should be different for the same Player" is the problem.
In the above video, Trackman shows that it's possible to use different Plane Angles and Angles of Approach and Attack and still result in a straight shot. Really??? is that new??? No, of course not. But the teacher concludes that that's just the way things are. That's why I have a problem with the video and the teacher. That's not the way things are, should be or need to be. In the right hands, Trackman should be an asset to the teacher, but in the wrong teachers hands, it will be the undoing of a potentially good player, who's paying big bucks while being led to believe that this is the best solution.
Trackman is a TOOL. And, as it is with all "tools", it's ONLY as good as the person who uses it. If you as a teacher don't have a firm grasp of golf alignments, then maybe you should learn these first before you spend good money on an overpriced piece of equipment. The teacher in the video is very confident that what he teaches is fundamentally sound and correct. Nothing new about that, either.
I would hope that Trackman will record the Ball Flights accurately and compute any minor differences in Geometry. That's not the problem. But, a problem does exist if you look at the numbers in the above video and conclude that a Driver should be swung with a different geometry than a Nine Iron. That they can be different is not the problem either. That they "Should be different for the same Player" is the problem.
In the above video, Trackman shows that it's possible to use different Plane Angles and Angles of Approach and Attack and still result in a straight shot. Really??? is that new??? No, of course not. But the teacher concludes that that's just the way things are. That's why I have a problem with the video and the teacher. That's not the way things are, should be or need to be. In the right hands, Trackman should be an asset to the teacher, but in the wrong teachers hands, it will be the undoing of a potentially good player, who's paying big bucks while being led to believe that this is the best solution.
Trackman is a TOOL. And, as it is with all "tools", it's ONLY as good as the person who uses it. If you as a teacher don't have a firm grasp of golf alignments, then maybe you should learn these first before you spend good money on an overpriced piece of equipment. The teacher in the video is very confident that what he teaches is fundamentally sound and correct. Nothing new about that, either.
That's the scary part, interpretation. Another teacher is using TrackMan to declare there is no such thing as swing planes, even though TrackMan interprets planes and feeds the user the corresponding numbers. That's where AGENDA comes in. Making stuff up to put down other teachers. Saying TrackMan disproves the Imperatives is disingenuous and BS.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
That's the scary part, interpretation. Another teacher is using TrackMan to declare there is no such thing as swing planes, even though TrackMan interprets planes and feeds the user the corresponding numbers. That's where AGENDA comes in. Making stuff up to put down other teachers. Saying TrackMan disproves the Imperatives is disingenuous and BS.
Kevin
Yes, I agree one could make up support for almost anything. I would just like to see some data from an accomplished machine stroke on one. Just to see how the geometry is supported. These types of devices are not going away any time soon. They will become more available as time goes on. IMHOP, the TGM community has an opportunity to get out in front now. Somebody make a video!!!! That stack n tilt 2.0 "by the numbers" thingy is going to be popular. I want to see it and I'm not SNT. The same type of thing needs to be done by LBG. Seems like a good time since the "aligment 2" video never came out.
Last edited by IH82BOGEY : 01-23-2012 at 03:43 PM.
Reason: added verbage
Yes, I agree one could make up support for almost anything. I would just like to see some data from an accomplished machine stroke on one. Just to see how the geometry is supported. These types of devices are not going away any time soon. They will become more available as time goes on. IMHOP, the TGM community has an opportunity to get out in front now. Somebody make a video!!!! That stack n tilt 2.0 "by the numbers" thingy is going to be popular. I want to see it and I'm not SNT. The same type of thing needs to be done by LBG. Seems like a good time since the "aligment 2" video never came out.
I agree, it would be very interesting. I know YODA has spent time with a TrackMan, hopefully when his schedule allows, he'll jump in.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
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