So what you're saying is...you smell your way to a steady head?
Thanks for the input.
In my 4,000+ posts on this site, you, young man -- you, young PGA Professional -- have been given the fruit of my life in Golf, including my association with my mentor, Homer Kelley. I wish I could recapture my own youth and keep the knowledge I have today. But, alas, that cannot be, so I have gifted it to you.
And yet...
You return stone for bread.
At some point in your life you may find a better bargain. But...
I think not.
Meanwhile, as I attempt to make a better world for people exactly like you -- and exactly like me in my youth -- I read your gratuitous post...
I guess you don't want to respond to my posts. (maybe I wrote too much...?)
That's ok tho.
...
Annikan...
Never been to one of those labs. (man you've done your homework eh....crazy science stuff comin out from all over the place )
Anyhow...
I think a base of neck pivot centre is very valuable for teaching people to pivot (so they don't reverse pivot)...and obviously not only that....but also for playing to a high level of precision. (and power) For some people.
But a head pivot centre works well too- for some people...for some shots. I don't know tho...if it's as valuable for teaching slicers....? I also feel it can be dynamic (obviosuly...look at Freddie Couples)...but not as dynamic....(less likely to see any very very long hitters or long drive guys using it anytime soon)
I'm gonna try to bow out of this one on that....(prolly will be back tho)
Last edited by birdie_man : 08-28-2006 at 05:30 PM.
Lynn - I'm curious to know of any discussions or recordings in which Homer talks about the center of balance in the context of the centered head? I have often wondered why he decided on the essential of a steady head and not simply a "center of balance" or a "centered arc".
Certainly the relationship between the hands and eyes must have been critical, as you have mentioned, the eyes are a critical component of the human machine to be sure.
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Lynn - I'm curious to know of any discussions or recordings in which Homer talks about the center of balance in the context of the centered head? I have often wondered why he decided on the essential of a steady head and not simply a "center of balance" or a "centered arc".
Certainly the relationship between the hands and eyes must have been critical, as you have mentioned, the eyes are a critical component of the human machine to be sure.
I have recordings of all three of the Golf Stroke Engineering Master classes Homer Kelley lived to conduct. I do not recall any such discussion relating the Centered Head to a "center of balance" or even to the body's center of gravity.
Note that in The Glossary, he defines Balance as "Holding the center of gravity of the body inside The Stance without moving the Head."
I wonder if the Hinge Pin is really meant to be vertical to the ground? Can at Impact Fix can you have a bit of tilt to the right at the top while still having bottom of the hinge pin precisely between the feet?
Clearly this hinge pin is not meant to be the blance point of the golfer in the golf stroke (if that was so, then weight would be equally distributed at impact).
A Hinge Pin is normally costructed such that its movement is at right angles to stationary post. If the right shoulder is driving down, might it not have to be tilted in order for it to be the most efficent?
These are intended to be just questions not trying to make an arguement one way or the other. Just trying to understand the application of the Hinge Pin.
This post seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle of all the banter back and forth, but it really caught my attention and I would like to hear more on this sublect. It would seem to me (maybe seems is if) that the hinge pin you describe would not be perpindicular to the ground, but more an approximation and extention of the spine angle to the ground.
I'm picturing an angled (approximating the spine angle) post, or pin with it's top near the top of the shoulders. The turning shoulder plane has a radius equal to the distance from this post/pin to the left shoulder socket, which is another hinge pin, perpindicular to the turning shoulder plane which in motion must be parallel to the sweetspot plane, but beneath it. Is this what you are getting at or have I missed the point completely?
For instance if the Pencil/Stick was in a Forward Bend of say 20 degrees and the Side Bend to the Right of 10 degrees the spine angle would stay the same....The head would've moved to the outside of the right foot and also moved up away from the golf ball....
Here at Campbell University we have several golf swings loaded in a 3D APAS Motion Analysis System which alllows us to view the golf stroke from any percpective of 360 degrees and gives us data in the X,Y,Z and 3D ....similar to that of TaylorMades MATT System...If I can figure out how to get one of the files to embedd here I will try to do so....
Annikan~
My one reference to the MATT System is a Golf Illustrated article by Tom Stickney III (at one time a GSED). It was claimed in the article that MATT proved a shoulder turn perpendicular to the axis of the spine in route to the top resulted in a much simpler and consistent transitional motion into the downswing. The thrust of the article was how setup adjustments would help in making what he termed a “level” shoulder turn . He established a connection to TGM in mentioning HK’s “level“ shoulder turn as one where the shoulders turn at right angles to the spine. As this description is in 10-13-C, Rotated, I assume it was his reference and his “level” is Mr. Kelley’s “normal.” Of course, until the seventh addition the Shoulder Turn for the two patterns was Flat.
What does this have to do with this thread? The “shoulder blade” advocates seem to be taking issue with a “centered” pivot because of an association with a reversed weight shift.
In another earlier article Tom Stickney reported professionals tested as having a 0 to 7 degree bend toward the target at the top with the “average” amateur at 20. The cause of the position was the shoulders not being “level” or more specifically the right shoulder planed higher. His solution for the amateur included a 2-4 inch lateral tilt at address. Other sources mention 10 degrees. The spine position description in your post suggest this setup, maybe without intending any significance.
Nick Price from his book has left me with the impression that turning the shoulders perpendicular to the spine is an important concept for many tour players (Sergio and Adam Scott may be other examples) and it is included as a fundamental in different teaching , Hardy and Haney being examples.
Do you have an opinion about the relationship between Homer Kelley’s preference for a head centered pivot and his preference (third addition) for a Flat Shoulder Turn?
One of the reasons Golfers fail to execute a Centered Pivot is because it is far easier to Slide than to Twist. Most Golfers are too lazy to Twist. It takes work.
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