Daryl's excellent instruction on the set-up of the "Underhanded Pitch" produces a swing that is very, very flat feeling that lies on a plane that seems to me to sit below the plane of my shoulders. With the sun giving me an observable shadow, the Underhand Pitch or "Side-arm stone skip" ala Hogan, must be programmed for ball flight by moderating the Low Point via width of stance as mentioned by Hogan.
Originally Posted by EdZ
Thanks, I'll have to incubate a bit on the shoulder turn vs. plane, which while it makes sense, I wonder if it is more a matter of anatomy than geometry.
What would your perspective be from a face on view?
The Clubshaft's Forward Lean (2-J-2) through Impact and the Right Forearm's Angle of Approach are dictated by:
1. Club design (2-G);
2. Plane Angle and the consequent Clubhead Line Of Flight (2-N-O);
2. Ball Location (3-F-7-E); and
3. The degree of Right Wrist Bend established at Impact Fix (6-C-2-A).
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Wrist and Hand Action Down The Delivery Path
Originally Posted by rchang72
Thanks Yoda. I still don't entirely understand how to practice the delivery path of hands, so I'm going to have to process this. If I read you correctly, I should think of it like a karate strike with the heel of an open palm through the aiming point?
[Bold by Yoda.]
For Swingers, the Sequenced Release (4-D-0) involves the Left Hand palm-down-to-the-Plane Karate Chop into Release followed by the Left Wrist Swivel into Impact. Meanwhile, the Right Hand is responsible for the passive Aiming of the #3 Pressure Point as Centrifugal Force provides the Active Clubhead Drive.
For Hitters, the Release of the Left Wrist Cock and Left Hand Roll are simultaneous. Both are actuated by the straightening Right Elbow. Thus, there is no Karate Chop and no Left Wrist Swivel into Impact. As with Swinging, the Right Hand's #3 Pressure Point provides guidance to the Stroke, but in addition, it also funnels the Right Arm Thrust as Active Clubhead Drive.
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Re: Drawing
Originally Posted by RickPinewild
Is the impact line really that severe, it appears to be at about a 45* angle, or is this exagerated for instuctional purposes?
Yes, the angle of approach is quite sever...the "openness" of the clubhead in the drawing, however, is exagerated so you can see it better. It is really more like 3 degrees.
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A Rose By Any Other Name (Is Still A Rose)
Originally Posted by DDL
I am starting to hate the aiming point procedure described in TGM, which induces 'flippyness' of the wrists. I never saw the Ben Doyle tape, but the Chuck Evans right forearm angle of approach video, the Yoda impact bag video, and your description of the Ben Doyle video all point to hands being pulled or pushed straight from the top to the impact hands location, not the ball.
Correctly executed, DDL, the Aiming Point Concept (6-E-2) produces alignments identical with those of the Impact Hand Location Concept (7-8 ). The former is the indirect equivalent of the latter (6-E-1). But as Homer says, "When in doubt, there is always the Impact Fix Hand Location procedure" (6-E-2).
Note: The as-yet-unpublished 7th Edition of The Golfing Machine includes a revision to 6-E-1. In the 5th sentence (6th Edition page 82), change 'Flat Left Wrist' to 'Impact Hand Location.'
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Different Strokes
armourall wrote:
Yoda wrote:
armourall wrote:
golfingrandy wrote:
armourall wrote:
golfingrandy wrote:
armourall wrote:
Does your Hitting procedure include a pre-turned right hip?
If you are not using a pre-set or pre-turn of the hips in Hitting then you are incorrectly applying the procedure.
Randy,
I have to admit I still don't get the necessity of a pre-turned right hip. If my right elbow easily clears the right hip with the hips square (I also use a delayed hip action), are there any other reasons why the hips would need to be pre-turned? Since your assumption is that my procedure is incorrect (and it may be), are there other "warning signs" that would tell me my takeaway is flawed?
I would never be so presumptuous to state that your procedure is incorrect (now the 4-barrel disscusion is another story ).
If you are Hitting and you do not get the right hip out of the way, the path of the hands will be very similar to a fish hook. I like the lawnmower example.
Same is true on the downswing if one does not have a positive hip movement, the hands will go around. Hitting is straight line. The reason is that this is the only way to avoid CF in Hitting, which would be desirable. When one allows CF to creep into there Hitting procedure, soon throwaway will be present.
Remember, which has been stated here and elsewhere, that Homer preferred the hands for Hitting to begin at their impact location and that one would use a frozen right wrist. So go to that alignment and try to take the hands directly to the top without getting the right hip out of the way.
Randy...
OK, I've tried to INTENTIONALLY make my right elbow collide with my right hip on the takeaway (starting from my normal hands at impact position), but no matter what I do, it clears. Any ideas why I'm getting away with it? (I frequently use a flashlight to trace the plane, and I'm dead on.)
Armourall,
First time I've seen this stuff. Sorry to be so late getting here.
I think the reason you are having so little trouble with your Plane Line Tracing is that you are Tracing Plane Line of 10-5-A. This is the Plane Line Traced by the Swinger using the On Line Arc of Approach Procedure. Here the Pre-Turned Right Hip is helpful but not essential.
However, when Hitting, you should be using the Closed Plane Line of 10-5-E. This is the Plane Line visually Covered -- not Traced! -- by the Hitter using the Cross Line Angle of Approach Procedure. Here, unless you are transparent, you must Clear the Right Hip or you will be unable to Cover this Steep Plane Line and properly Fan the Right Forearm.
But doesn't 12-1-0 specify 10-5-A for Hitting?
Good question, Armourall. And a complete answer provides the opportunity toclear Major League Fog.
You have correctly and perceptively observed that the Square Plane Line (10-5-A)is listed as the Plane Line Component (#5) for the Drive Loading Basic Patternof 12-1-0. In contrast, my post recommended the Closed Plane Line (10-5-E). Themissing link is Homer's dual purpose in creating the Basic StrokePatterns of Chapter 12.
His first objective was to present the Basic Uncompensated Stroke forboth Hitting (12-1-0) and Swinging (12-2-0). The second was to permit theplayer to interchange those patterns -- both when learning them andin using them in actual play -- with a minimum of disruption totheir original Basic Pattern. To accomplish this second objective, he variedthe respective Components only as absolutely necessary to accomodate thenature of each, i.e., the Push (Drive Loading) or the Pull (DragLoading).
The Straight Plane Line of 10-5-A is the true Geometric Plane Line andas such, it is the Basic Delivery Line for both Hitting andSwinging(2-J-3). Swingers actively Trace -- point at -- this Straight Line asthe simplified alternative to Monitoring the Curved Arc of the ClubheadBlur through the Impact Point and Low Point. In Tracing the Straight Plane Lineof 10-5-A -- the On Line Procedure -- the Swinger automatically producesthe correct Visual Arc of Approach (2-J-3-A)-- the curved Path of theClubhead Blur -- through Impact.
As stated above, Hitters may use this same Basic Delivery Line. In sodoing, they likewise will produce the On Line Arc of ApproachProcedure. However, unlike Swingers, they have an additional option, and thatis the Cross Line Angle of Approach procedure. The Angle ofApproach is that Straight Line drawn between the Impact Point and Low Point(2-J-3-B and Sketch 2-C-1-#3). As long as the Clubhead passes through those twopoints, the Angle of Approach and the Arc of Approach are Geometric Equivalents.
The Closed Plane Line of 10-5-E can be erected on the Angle of Approach, and itsBaseline (by definition) will cross the Straight Plane Line of 10-5-A and pointto "Right Field." It is not practical for the Swinger to use thisalternative Plane Line to Deliver the Clubhead into Impact. This is because hesenses a Circular "Wheel Rim" Whirling Motion of his Orbiting Handsthrough the Three Stations, i.e., from the Address to the Top andthrough Impact to the Finish. This Swinging Motion is much bettersuited to the On Line (Arc of Approach) Procedure and is best produced byTracing the Straight Plane Line of 10-5-A.
The Hitter, however, does not experience the Wheel Rim sensation of theOrbiting Hands. Instead of a 'Swinging' Motion of the Hands in theBackstroke, he senses a 'Carrying' Motion. And instead of a CircularWhirling Motion through the Ball, he senses a decided Straight LineThrust (of the Driving Right Arm). And this Thrust lends itself ideallyto the Cross Line Angle of Approach Procedure.
For the Hitter, then, the two Procedures -- On Line (Arc of Approach) andCross Line (Angle of Approach) -- are interchangeable. And to satisfyHomer's second Stroke Pattern objective -- as much consistency aspossible between the two Basic Patterns (Drive and Drag) -- he listed theSquare Plane Line of 10-5-A as Component #5 for both. He also advised that theplayer should avoid customizing either until the "expert" stage wasreached. If you have not yet reached that stage, then stay with 10-5-A forHitting.
However, if you have, then per 2-J-3, the Cross Line 'Hit' ispreferred to the On Line 'Hit' and the customization of the Basic12-1-0 Pattern is warranted. The On Line 'Swing' remains the preferredProcedure for 12-2-0, whether the player has reached the expert stage or not.
And this brings us back to Square One -- the need for the Pre-Turned Right Hip.Interestingly, both Stroke Patterns list the Delayed Hip Action (10-15-B) asthe Basic Hip Action Component (#15). Its Pre-Turned Right Hip is helpfulto players using the On Line Swing because it assures that the Hipwill be properly Cleared in the Backstroke, thus permitting the Hands toexecute the mandatory Three Dimensional Backstroke (2-F). It also offers more 'RightForearm Fanning' room in Start Up than the Standard Action of 10-15-A.
However, while the Pre-Turned Right Hip is helpful to the On LineSwinger it is essential to the Cross Line Hitter. His Closed Plane Lineproduces a Cross Line Clubhead Path and with it, a Right Hip—Right Elbowconflict. This Path (and its problematic Hip—Elbow conflict) may be preciselyidentified by observing the On Plane Right Forearm Angle of Approach inImpact Fix and the parallel Clubhead Angle of Approach through Impact.And the curious fact is that your Hands simply will not take the Club backon that Line if your Right Hip is in the way. And it is! You can tell them-- out loud if you wish -- that you will move the Hip immediately in Start Up,but they will not believe you. As Homer used to say, "The Hands just won'tbuy it." And so they just 'go around' the Hip and take the Club Off Planein the process.
So, if you're going to Cross Line Hit, you must Pre-Turn theRight Hip. And since the Pre-Turned Hip is perfectly acceptable (and even advisable)for On Line Swingers as well, Homer made it the Basic Hip Action Component for bothBasic Stroke Patterns. Why should you have to spend years learning andusing Standard Hip Action -- with On Line Swinging or On Line Hitting orboth -- only to find out that the Pre-Turned Hip of Delayed Hip Action ismandated by the more sophisticated Cross Line Hit? And then be forced to startall over again learning a new Hip Action Component and then integrating itinto your Basic Pattern? Or else forego The Joy of Cross Line Hitting.
You see, Homer knew long before you did that you would be following him downthis road, and he wanted to make your transition as easy as possible.
Pretty neat, don't you think?
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
You will begin to understand a lot of alignments using this procedure rather than the Swivel.
FORWARD SHAFT LEAN is a product of the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. Locating the Ball aft of Low Point will then have a Forward Leaning Shaft in relation to the ground because the Ball is Struck "While" (before) the Shaft has reached Low-Point. But.....
Quote:
2-J-2 ......... Theoretically, Impact at any point of perfect circle will produce the same results except for direction. So – the Clubshaft is never, normally, at right angles to the Plane Line through Impact – it leans forward. So, except beyond Low Point always be sure that it does.
Use Impact Fix to determine the correct distance from the Ball. Make sure this distance allows enough Right Elbow Bend through Impact because the Bent Right Elbow is responsible to return the Level Left Wrist to Impact.
Use Impact Fix to determine Stance Width. Low Point is below and opposite the Hinge Pin which heavily relies on Right Shoulder Location at Impact.
If you Locate the Ball any distance aft of Low-Point, a corresponding amount of Hook Face must be added to insure that the Clubface will be square to the Angle of Approach at Impact.
The Exact amount of Hook-Face is determined by the distance between the Ball and Low-Point.
So....If you use the same Ball Location but move Low-Point slightly Forward (by narrowing the stance) then you must add Hook-Face.
Boy, that explains a lot of my miscues playing a round of golf.
Originally Posted by Daryl
Hook Face
If you Locate the Ball any distance aft of Low-Point, a corresponding amount of Hook Face must be added to insure that the Clubface will be square to the Angle of Approach at Impact.
The Exact amount of Hook-Face is determined by the distance between the Ball and Low-Point.
So....If you use the same Ball Location but move Low-Point slightly Forward (by narrowing the stance) then you must add Hook-Face.
Thats why I leave so many 8 and 9 irons out to the right! I narrow my stance but do not close the face. Thanks D.
ICT
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