Wanna' "see" a Square Plane Line?

[KevCarter]

I hope the explanation helps a little.

I'm not against Trackman or D-Plane. As far as illustrating the curved Ball Flight they would be good tools in the hands of a TGM expert. Expert. One that understands it's limitations.

I want to try Trackman on the putting green. I want to use a Driver and approach the ball at a 45 degree angle. I'll make the 4 foot putt. I just want to see what my Clubface Angle was. What do you think Trackman would report?

I'm not against them either. I would be more enthusiastic if they were promoted based upon their merits rather than having to beat up on others to make their points. I have no idea what it would report, zero experience with it...

Kevin

[Amen Corner]

I locate the Ball 1" behind Low-Point for all Clubs. I use Horizontal Hinging and Align the Plane and Target Lines Parallel. 90% of my shots are perfectly Straight. Poor execution accounts for the other ten percent.

Thank you for this.

As you may already know TM doesn't assume any rate of closing nor does it assume that the clubshaft is the angled plane as it tracks the centre of the head only and finally it doesn't assume the ball is low point.

If you had a centered hit on those 90% shot, TM would show that you had a planeline a tad left and not parallell to Target Line

[Daryl]

Thank you for this.

As you may already know TM doesn't assume any rate of closing nor does it assume that the clubshaft is the angled plane as it tracks the centre of the head only and finally it doesn't assume the ball is low point.

If you had a centered hit on those 90% shot, TM would show that you had a planeline a tad left and not parallell to Target Line

Then Trackman would be wrong. Baiting me isn't going to solve the problems with Trackman. Trackman follows the Ball Flight and doesn't need D-Plane theory. But Trackman Calculates Face angle and Loft and it leaves a lot on the Table because it can't reconcile Horizontal Hinge Action. It assumes that the Face stays square to the path, so it does assume a closing rate. Trackman doesn't deal with Low-Point. It Tracks everything from Ball Location, including angle of Attack and Angle of Approach. Otherwise it could easily tell you how far behind or ahead of Low-Point the Ball was Located.

The assumptions are built into their calculations. You aim Trackman at the Target, it doesn't deal with Plane Lines. Trackman wouldn't know the difference between a Clubhead and Bowling ball or if you hit the ball with a Tennis Ball on the end of a String.

It's a calculator with radar. It should sell for $700.00. What would Trackman read if I hit a Plastic Ball? What if I hit a baseball with a long Bat? or a Soccer Ball with a Hockey Stick?

I'm not saying that Trackman is a health issue, I'm just cautioning you to be aware of it's limitations.

[okie]

Hi Okie,

What do you feel was the biggest change you made with your new understanding? Face alignment, alignment of the path, or swing change? Or is it a little of each?

Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin,

All of the above, but specially the angle of attack. TGM improved my mechanics, especially FLW (I seldom throw the club in a disastrous fashion these days) But according to TM my angle of attack with say my six iron was -4.2 degrees, in order to hit the ball dead straight I basicaly had to "trace left" a couple of degrees. TGM also taught me how to trace! i had a basic understanding of how the face and path interact with one another, but I did not fully grasp the role of the angle of attack, or the vertical swing plane (the angle of the swing plane)I paid through the nose to get on TM to see what all of the hulabaloo is about. I also learned how to hit my driver 18 yards further! It turned out that I needed 2-4 degrees more loft on my driver (for optimum launch numbers etc) given the angle of attack I was using (aka hitting down)It turns out my driver was perfect for a +3 degree angle of attack. So, get a new driver with granny-loft, or hit it on the way up. I have never hit the modern driver well enough to think that it was a cheat stick...I am embarrassed by some of the drives I have hit in the last couple of weeks! It almost looks like a knuckle ball. Of course because the head is moving up and in you have to rotate the plane line a bit right. I seem to recall Yoda talking about something similar. I agree that a TGM expert would make good use of TM. Unfortunately, I do not fully understand the points of contention with d-plane...I am just going on what my eyeballs and doppler eyeballs are telling me. Like hogan (the likeness ends there) I am on a quest to eradicate a hook that ended my dream of playing professionally. The best I could do was learn to play a push-draw. I have not hit it left of the centerline one time in a month. I did hit a push-fade to about 40 ft. Perhaps this will disappear like the many soap bubbles (queue violin music) of the past, OR I have something to hang my hat on. If that be the case...I'm back!

[Amen Corner]

Then Trackman would be wrong. Baiting me isn't going to solve the problems with Trackman.

The assumptions are built into their calculations. You aim Trackman at the Target, it doesn't deal with Plane Lines. Trackman wouldn't know the difference between a Clubhead and Bowling ball.

It's a calculator with radar. It should sell for $700.00. What would Trackman read if I hit a Plastic Ball?

Of course it deals with plane lines, it tracks the clubhead hundreds of times on every swing, measuring both the plane line and the plane angle that the clubhead follows.

A couple of follow ups:

- Do you know the difference between measuring and calculating?

- What do you believe Trackman measures?
Since you seem as an expert on the subject, you must know how far the clubhead is tracked for and what that period of tracking allows the machine to extrapolate?

In Trackmans case everything is measured except face angle, the numbers are raw data presented in easy to understand terms. Face angle is calculated from these other data sets.

[Daryl]

Of course it deals with plane lines, it tracks the clubhead hundreds of times on every swing, measuring both the plane line and the plane angle that the clubhead follows.

A couple of follow ups:

- Do you know the difference between measuring and calculating?

- What do you believe Trackman measures?
Since you seem as an expert on the subject, you must know how far the clubhead is tracked for and what that period of tracking allows the machine to extrapolate?

In Trackmans case everything is measured except face angle, the numbers are raw data presented in easy to understand terms. Face angle is calculated from these other data sets.

Do you want to participate in a discussion or Bait me?

If it doesn't measure face angle between impact and separation then it doesn't know the effects of a Horizontal Hinge. It's based on a "Collision Theory" involving "Glancing Blow" to Back-end-calculate face Angle from Ball Spin. That's my problem with Trackman besides the ridiculously high price for using 30 year old technology. The Profit margin for that toy would make even "Bill Gates" blush!

Then, just like anything advertised today, they package it by claiming "New Science" and "New Laws". As though the Laws of physics have ever changed. Someone soon will have a duplicate machine for half the Price. Then Trackman will announce "New and Improved Laws".

It's not much different than selling a Driver and Promising Longer Drives or a club that helps you get it up in the air, or a wedge with "Stopping Power". It's the Indian, not the arrow.

If Trackman helps a player play better golf, then great. He learned a different way to swing a club. Like Okie did. But don't claim that all the old ways were bad or that the rest of us are misinformed.

[Amen Corner]

Do you want to participate in a discussion or Bait me?

If it doesn't measure face angle between impact and separation then it doesn't know the effects of a Horizontal Hinge. It's based on a "Collision Theory" involving "Glancing Blow" to Back-end-calculate face Angle from Ball Spin. That's my problem with Trackman besides the ridiculously high price for using 30 year old technology. The Profit margin for that toy would make even "Bill Gates" blush!

Then, just like anything advertised today, they package it by claiming "New Science" and "New Laws". As though the Laws of physics have ever changed. Someone soon will have a duplicate machine for half the Price. Then Trackman will announce "New and Improved Laws".

I feel that the profit margin comments are totally unnecessary! It raises the question if you have an agenda with the company.

Just want to mention for you consideration. Face angle is not calculated from ball spin as you seem to believe. If it were calculated from spin we would never see the discrepencies created by off centre hits.

So my suggestion is to leave it to what it is at the moment with no more guessing from your part until you have spent time with a TM. Then this discussion could continue.

[Daryl]

I feel that the profit margin comments are totally unnecessary! It raises the question if you have an agenda with the company.

Just want to mention for you consideration. Face angle is not calculated from ball spin as you seem to believe. If it were calculated from spin we would never see the discrepencies created by off centre hits.

So my suggestion is to leave it to what it is at the moment with no more guessing from your part until you have spent time with a TM. Then this discussion could continue.

I'm not the one with the agenda. Trackman has and is making the claims and have created an advertising campaign equivalent to the price of their product. Can't you see through the Profit motive? Are they a non-profit producer? Do they offer a list of "Mis-readings" that the machine is not able to qualify or quantify?

Off center Hits can be calculated just as well with a hand calculator. Just look at the Clubmaking charts to see the effects. Clubhead speed 110 mph with a 220 yard carry. What about Gear effect?

Trackman is not perfect.

Anyway, don't participate if you don't want to.

[Amen Corner]

Do they offer a list of "Mis-readings" that the machine is not able to qualify or quantify?

Off center Hits can be calculated just as well with a hand calculator. Just look at the Clubmaking charts to see the effects. Clubhead speed 110 mph with a 220 yard carry. What about Gear effect?

Trackman is not perfect.

Are you suggesting that TGM is 100% perfect?

If the machine believes it has a poor reading, it provides no output for the club delivery data. It will still track the ball.

So far, the information provided on what the D Plane is, what Trackman can or can not do has not been accurate.

My greatest fear is that our community could be missing out on some vital information. Information that when understood and applied together with our present knowledge, thanks to Homer, could help us, as it has Okie's game.

[KevCarter]

Kevin,

All of the above, but specially the angle of attack. TGM improved my mechanics, especially FLW (I seldom throw the club in a disastrous fashion these days) But according to TM my angle of attack with say my six iron was -4.2 degrees, in order to hit the ball dead straight I basicaly had to "trace left" a couple of degrees. TGM also taught me how to trace! i had a basic understanding of how the face and path interact with one another, but I did not fully grasp the role of the angle of attack, or the vertical swing plane (the angle of the swing plane)I paid through the nose to get on TM to see what all of the hulabaloo is about. I also learned how to hit my driver 18 yards further! It turned out that I needed 2-4 degrees more loft on my driver (for optimum launch numbers etc) given the angle of attack I was using (aka hitting down)It turns out my driver was perfect for a +3 degree angle of attack. So, get a new driver with granny-loft, or hit it on the way up. I have never hit the modern driver well enough to think that it was a cheat stick...I am embarrassed by some of the drives I have hit in the last couple of weeks! It almost looks like a knuckle ball. Of course because the head is moving up and in you have to rotate the plane line a bit right. I seem to recall Yoda talking about something similar. I agree that a TGM expert would make good use of TM. Unfortunately, I do not fully understand the points of contention with d-plane...I am just going on what my eyeballs and doppler eyeballs are telling me. Like hogan (the likeness ends there) I am on a quest to eradicate a hook that ended my dream of playing professionally. The best I could do was learn to play a push-draw. I have not hit it left of the centerline one time in a month. I did hit a push-fade to about 40 ft. Perhaps this will disappear like the many soap bubbles (queue violin music) of the past, OR I have something to hang my hat on. If that be the case...I'm back!

Thanks Okie!