Id say Zach's "hold off" is strictly a necessity of grip/clubface conditions....... to me its tough to identify a lot of guys, but an obvious hitter is definitely JB........ and hold your ears
kp is not a hitter for sure and this has been milled over before
btw kp cannot hit a cut to save his life i know i grew up with him and played on tour with him
kp is not a hitter for sure and this has been milled over before
btw kp cannot hit a cut to save his life i know i grew up with him and played on tour with him
Okay, John. We've opened this up.
You say Kenny Perry is not a Hitter.
I say he is.
I think.
One of us is right.
Personally, I could care less which one of us that is.
But . . .
Let's talk and find out!
I know that your Basic Pattern is to Swing, but you can change on the very next Stroke and Hit. I remember that Par 3 several years ago where you cut a little 7-Iron in with a Hitting motion. Was it Richmond? I forget. We've talked about it. What a gorgeous, purposeful shot.
This is a great topic. And with you, me, John Tillery and the rest of the gang posted here, we've got a heavy-duty thread at work!
This is a great thread and I look forward to the discussion. To answer whether or not Kenny Perry is a Hitter or a Swinger, let's look at the barebones identity of the two motions. Hitting is PUSHING and Swinging is PULLING. (10-19-0) That is all there is to it, to paraphrase Homer Kelly.
It appears that Kenny Perry uses muscular thrust of the right arm, active thrust, to propel the primary lever (left arm and clubshaft) through the ball. Hitters stay just in front of Centrifugal Force and use active right forearm driveout to hit the ball. (6-B-1-0)
In slow motion videos of Perry's swing, I believe he is doing this very thing. He uses an expert pivot lag to deliver the club from top, through start down and backstroke, into release. (8-6 - 8-9) He then uses the right shoulder as a launching pad to straighten the bent arm though impact into the follow through.(8-10 - 8-11) This right arm action is the same for hitters and swingers, it just the intention. This action is ACTIVE in Hitters and PASSIVE in Swingers.
The presupposition that Perry is not a Hitter because he can not hit a fade, could be evaluated by looking at Hinge Action. Because of the active drive and paddlewheel action of the right arm through impact, Hitters will produce Angled Hinge Action ( a simulutaneous closing and laying back of the clubface)and thus a possible fade on the ball. I think Perry uses Horizontal Hinge Action (closing only of the clubface) thorough the impact interval to follow through which, with his 10-5-E setup alignments, will produce a draw. You can definitely override the tendency of Angled Hinging with Hitters, and perform Horizontal Hinging. (I-L-4) In his case, he does it time and time again.
Homer teaches the most important part of his system, Educated Hands in 6-H-0, and gives us a curriculum ten things to train and look for if we are dealing with Hitters and Swingers. In hitting, none of these include Hinge Action. I think 3-F-6 explains all of this. You can execute any Hinge Action, Swinging or Hitting,with any Stance Line/Plane Line combination to produce a variety of ball flights. (The Master's Level of Execution) To me, this says that I could do whatever I wanted to with the golf ball if I understood the correct Alignments and Hinge Action. Brilliant.
Kenny Perry has his stroke pattern (12-0)and has used that to earn millions of dollars on the PGA TOUR. He is a a magnificent player and a Hitter. Perhaps we could ask him one day, "Do you feel like you push or pull the club through the ball?" Again that is all the difference that separates Hitters and Swingers.
To paraphrase Homer again, do what you want and have fun. Aren't we so lucky that we can categorize these different types of actions and understand them. Maybe that will help us hit the ball just a little more like Kenny Perry. Maybe?
Curt Sanders
P.S. Check out Kenny Perry Iron Swing Vision on youtube to add to this evaluation.
In my last post, I mentioned that Hinge Action was not in 6-H-0. It is and I apologize for the oversight. In any event, Hitters can employ Horizontal Hinge Action just like Swingers can use Angled Hinge Action. You are just going a little "against the grain" if you do this.
I think Perry is a Hitter who use Horizontal Hinging and a 10-5-E setup to produce a draw. Again sorry for misquoting and I look forward to learning more from you all.
I feel like this might be a good time to nail down a related issue. Namely does Horizontal tend to draw? Does Angled tend to fade? I used to think so , now Im not so sure although I profess to not knowing the answer.
If the ball leaves square to the leading edge and curves in accordance to Divergence...curvature is still a product of path assuming the face is square to the target at separation. Meaning Hinge Action while it will profoundly influences compression (2-C) does not necessarily create curvature.
I think maybe.
In regard to whether KP is a Thruster: If he does Thrust against the aft of the shaft in Release the physics of that should reveal itself in the nature of his Release and shaft bend. His release would be overlapping to some degree, some #2 and #3 at the same time. We tend to think that for structural reasons his right elbow would be aligned in such a manner as to best Thrust. Punch Elbow for thrusting against the aft. But there are other Thrusters who employ an Active Right Arm Throw from Pitch..........are they still thrusting against the Aft? You can get into a grey area with all of this. If pulling/pushing is the sole criteria for swinging/hitting the Right ARm Throw from Pitch could be pulling couldnt it?
Since we have super slo mo of KP ........do we see any tell tale signs of Thrusting? The physics of it should reveal itself but like seeing the Right Arm Throw its still very difficult to spot and perhaps inconclusive.
P.S. Kenny Perry is one of the nicest professional sportsmen Ive ever witnessed interact with the fans.
I think Perry hits a draw because he has a plane line well out to the right and a face slightly closed to it, I think the hinge he is using is irrelevant to the amount of curve this produces.
I do think Perry is a hitter, I see drive with the right arm and don't see CF motion. Its subjective.
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"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
Can't the various hingings produce either fades or draws depending on the ball position?
If i had to choose, KP is hitting, cause his pivot is slow.
For sure but if you played the ball at low point say with the Face at Separation looking down the Target Line and Plane Line and therefore no Divergence in Path and Face, Im thinking that Hinge Action would only influence compression and trajectory.
Having said that I do see the tendencies towards draw spin with Horizontal when Im hitting little pitches so I know its a head scratcher. But the laws of Impact Geometry must apply to all shots so it still comes down to path and face not Hinge Action per say. I think......currently. As if the draw tendency of Horizontal really has to do with a tendency to get the face angle misaligned at separation. Slightly closed which given enough divergence will hit a pull draw. Horizontal tending towards dynamic face angle variations/ errors in left and right , Vertical tending towards face errors in up and down, Angled being a mix of both.
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