Wwell I said that the statement about assuring the hips are being cleared was not in the fourth edition, then you said " no whip it goes all the way back to the first" my point was that that statement is not in the fourth.... Just trying to clarify that in fact the originally posted statement was not stated in all editions, I thought you were refuting that by saying "no whip that wording goes all the way back to the first.." I am sick hence easily confused and also why I have been posting so much!
Actually, Whip, your post didn't say anything about the hip turn. It merely referenced a "statement", presumably from a prior Par71 post, but gave no clue as to what that statement was.
Originally Posted by whip
Ok so this was a statement only made in the 7th edition to be clear not stated in earlier editions....
I took your reference to mean the text he quoted in his post #7 (the most recent) whereas I now see that you were talking about post #1. At least the mistake gave me the opportunity to add other insights!
Now seems like a good time to remind everybody that the Quote function is a valuable tool. It keeps everybody on the same page and prevents this kind of confusion.
P.S. Get well soon, Whip . . . but keep up those posting stats!
10-14-0 General the hip turn stroke component includes weight shift and concerns only motion, unrelated to action which is a separate component, requires separate consideration
10-15-0 General hip action classifications are based on the directions in which hip action--if any--actuates the shoulder turn
So component 10-15-b is classified as hip ACTION, why then would he use this verbiage in 10-15-b "use this hip TURN to prevent overswinging" why would he use the word turn and not action when he specifically differentiated the two components, is it because the nature of pre turning is in fact a hip motion and not action whereas the downstroke of delayed hip action is in fact an action so it is actually half hip turn(backstroke) and half hip action(downstroke) relating to yodas point about the work of the action not happening til start down ??? Or is this simply how the verbiage was written, unintentionally mixing the verbiage between the components. Par 71 I'm sure you know this one....
So component 10-15-b is classified as hip ACTION, why then would he use this verbiage in 10-15-b "use this hip TURN to prevent overswinging" why would he use the word turn and not action when he specifically differentiated the two components
With Delayed Hip Action, "Hip Action is delayed until Start Down". So the Action of the Hips cannot be responsible for preventing overswinging on the backstroke. I think Homer is referring to the first sentence of 10-15-B where he explains that the Shoulders lead and power (or at least lead) the Backstroke Hip Turn. In other words, a Backstroke Hip Turn that is lead by the Shoulders (rather than the other way round) prevents overswinging.
He wrote "Hip Turn" in that sentence you quoted in every edition from the first to the seventh. So I assume it's intentional.
Great explanation yoda and par71 in regards to the ACTION and reasoning behind it. I am of the opinion also that it was intentional to make that important distinction. something I have never noticed before about 10-15-b.
You and me both Whip. I was always foggy on "Delayed Hip Action." YODA's post helped tremendously. I love learning this stuff!
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Master Machinist Eddie Cox....Preturn the right hip until the "line" from the left knee joint to right hip socket is parallel to the angle of approach approximated by the on plane right forearm that is the right forearm flying wedge....hand path also complying to this line...at top the left arm also has a parallel relationship to the angle of approach...right shoulder working OUT to the plane line on the line as well...sweet spot driven out...low deep hands hitting with a standing discus LAUNCHING pivot...game changing pattern....
Beautiful explanation from Mr. Cox and 6PieceBucket!
Kevin
Only 6 cause I be on another diet...
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Originally Posted by Par71
I understand that Delayed Hip Action with preturned Hips will assure Clearing of the Right Hip. But preturning the Hips is not mandatory for Delayed Hip Action, is it? Homer says "Turn the Hips a predetermined amount - or none at all - and then semi-lock them at that point before starting back with either the Shoulders or the Club." (Bold by me.)
I took the quote in my first post above to mean that Delayed Hip Action even without preturned Hips would assure Clearing of the Right Hip, whereas Standard Hip Action would not. Maybe that was not intended.
Originally Posted by Yoda
No, Par71, that most certainly was not the intent. In fact, a "sticky" right hip has produced probably more horrendous golf shots under tournament pressure than any other error. Ask Greg Norman, whose closet would have at least one or two green jackets if that were not the case coming down the stretch.
The "or none at all" you bolded refers to those Strokes where no Hip Turn -- pre-cleared or otherwise -- is necessary, e.g., a ten-foot putt.
I do not think putting would be applicable to a delayed hip action because the hips power the downstroke shoulder turn with this variation, I think you would use zero hip action with zero hip turn for putting...
I do not think putting would be applicable to a delayed hip action because the hips power the downstroke shoulder turn with this variation, I think you would use zero hip action with zero hip turn for putting...
Wow. See how confusing this is?
I used a ten-foot putt to make the most obvious example I could think of.
Originally Posted by Yoda
The "or none at all" you bolded refers to those Strokes where no Hip Turn -- pre-cleared or otherwise -- is necessary, e.g., a ten-foot putt.
You can't have a Hip Action if there is no Hip Turn.
When you related putting to delayed hip action, that is what was confusing. Otherwise I would not have posted. I have Reread the post and still do not find it confusing.
If you'll read my post carefully, you'll see that I wrote "Hip Turn" not Hip Action (Delayed or otherwise).
And, a Hip Turn that moves "none at all" -- the point that was under discussion and which I took to the extreme in my putting example (no Hip Turn in either direction) -- is classified as a Zero Hip Turn (10-14-E). This Component Variation automatically produces a Zero Hip Action (10-15-D) -- not Standard, Delayed, or Short. It also tends to automatically produce Zero Knee Action (10-16-E) and Zero Foot Action (10-17-E). All this constrains the Shoulder Turn but does not initiate it (in either direction). Hence, no work, and by definition, no Action.
That said, let's take the subject a bit further. It is possible for the Hips to Turn in the Stroke, yet do no work. This situation would also be classified as Zero Hip Action, even though there was a Hip Turn.
In this instance, the Hips are providing motion only, and that motion may resemble the Standard Action (free Turn with Hips leading in both directions). However, they are not pulling the shoulders in either direction, a fact usually evidenced by a "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship".
When you related putting to delayed hip action, that is what was confusing. Otherwise I would not have posted.
Originally Posted by Yoda
If you'll read my post carefully, you'll see that I wrote "Hip Turn" not Hip Action (Delayed or otherwise).
And, a Hip Turn that moves "none at all" -- the point that was under discussion and which I took to the extreme in my putting example (no Hip Turn in either direction) -- is classified as a Zero Hip Turn (10-14-E). This Component Variation automatically produces a Zero Hip Action (10-15-D) -- not Standard, Delayed, or Short. It also tends to automatically produce Zero Knee Action (10-16-E) and Zero Foot Action (10-17-E). All this constrains the Shoulder Turn but does not initiate it (in either direction). Hence, no work, and by definition, no Action.
That said, let's take the subject a bit further. It is possible for the Hips to Turn in the Stroke, yet do no work. This situation would also be classified as Zero Hip Action, even though there was a Hip Turn.
In this instance, the Hips are providing motion only, and that motion may resemble the Standard Action (free Turn with Hips leading in both directions). However, they are not pulling the shoulders in either direction, a fact usually evidenced by a "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship".
Right Lynn, zero hip turn automatically produces zero hip action, "the or none at all" is straight out of 10-15-b delayed hip action, which would be incompatible if you are using no hip turn e.g. A ten foot putt
So the "or none at all" that is in the description of 10-15-b DELAYED HIP ACTION could not have been referring to those strokes where no hip turn is necessary because zero hip turn and delayed hip action are incompatible components.
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