I may be misunderstanding your intent, but as long as the screen door is installed on hinges, the "clubface" or door motion is still the exact same.
Same action of the clubface, but at a different rate of speed (therefore, no "timing" of clubface closing - no matter your rate of speed). Push a door as hard as you want, it will still line up exactly with the frame (at some point along its journey).
As far as how much clubface rotation, the amount will be perfect every time if you take care of proper alignment and physics, (that is FLW held vertical to the related basic plane (a condition) and orbiting arms and/or torso) and also if you just know that hinging is not idependent wrist rotation. So this might say, if worried about executing a swivel instead of hinging, feel what the arms and torso are torso are doing - only orbiting, no effort towards any independent wrist rotation.
Check out the Swingvisions. Pay attention to the end of each one where the isolate the club. The toe of those clubs is certainly closing . . . but the rate of closing is VERY SMALL.
Per 2-G, Stop at the end of a short Chip Shot – the Club at about 45 degrees. With Horizontal Hinging, the toe of the Club will point along the Plane Line
My misunderstanding I think was that the toe ALWAYS pointed along the plane line thus causing an over-roll and fast rate of closing. So the key is it points along the plane line when you stop the clubshaft at 45 DEGREES
By strict definition Hinging is only from the point of impact to separation . . . so I would say that it is pretty difficult to distinguish what hinge motion a player is using. Again at some small distance the club is moving pretty much in a straight line . . . and for that small distance there is I would surmise very little difference in the amount of CLOSING for Horizontal Hinging and Angled Hinging. I would say that you have a better chance of distinguishing the Hinge Action by looking at LAYBACK rather than closing.
There are some pictures of Vijay where he looks to be executing Swivel through Impact rather than Hinge Motion.
So maybe this experiment is flawed but if you take the toe of your club and place it against a wall and scrape for 12 inches back and through . . . . the toe doesn't move all that much in differentiating the Hinge Motions for that 12 inch span . . . which IS where the rubber meets the road. Or if you don't like the wall experiment . . . do it on a low bench as Homer advised. The rotation about the sweetspot ain't all that much . . . I don't think.
Bucket ,the door is reflecting the hinge action -but not on an inclined plane.
But the closing only motion is the same. It's got to close from "on plane" at the start of release,to square at separation -so depending how late you release,it may have to close 90* in -say-4 feet. 22.5* per foot!
Assuming Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A), the Clubface Closing Action from Release to Impact is a Swivel Action, i.e., the Turned Left Wrist returning to its Vertical alignment for Impact. Only from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through is there a Hinge Action, i.e., the Left Wrist remaining in its Vertical alignment to one of the three Associated Planes (Horizontal, Vertical or Angled).
Per 2-G, Stop at the end of a short Chip Shot – the Club at about 45 degrees. With Horizontal Hinging, the toe of the Club will point along the Plane Line
There are some pictures of Vijay where he looks to be executing Swivel through Impact rather than Hinge Motion.
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My post was to say that the club will automatically achieve the above postion with proper alignments and physics. No need to think " I'm going to use horizontal hinging, so I need to make the clubface point along the plane line at some point." Rather think, FLW held in condition vertical to related basic plane and orbiting arms/ and or torso. Absolutely no concern for "rate" of closesure for clubface alignment. With proper hinging, varying closure rate will only effect the distance the ball travels (no matter what the speed, clubface will still be in the same position at impact and separation with proper hinging - meaning same relative postion for two different speeds; not that the clubface has the same position at impact and separation).
I have no idea, but I wouldn't doubt that a lot of pros might execute swivels through impact ( and they can "time" the action really well, or they hit a bad shot). And then you have golfers who have always executed swivels through impact, with inconsistent results. And then they might come to a "half truth" realization to "take the hands out of the swing and use body rotation" - see Nick Faldo.
With proper hinge action, toe closure "is what it is", very precise and exact, no degrees of (just rides the installed hinge). To be picky, I don't know about labeling "it isn't that much." Because there certainly is closure. But certainly less than if one executes a swivel through impact (which is what I think your correct point is).
My post was to say that the club will automatically achieve the above postion with proper alignments and physics. No need to think " I'm going to use horizontal hinging, so I need to make the clubface point along the plane line at some point." Rather think, FLW held in condition vertical to related basic plane and orbiting arms/ and or torso. Absolutely no concern for "rate" of closesure for clubface alignment. With proper hinging, varying closure rate will only effect the distance the ball travels (no matter what the speed, clubface will still be in the same position at impact and separation with proper hinging).
I have no idea, but I wouldn't doubt that a lot of pros might execute swivels through impact ( and they can "time" the action really well, or they hit a bad shot). And then you have golfers who have always executed swivels through impact, with inconsistent results. And then they might come to a "half truth" realization to "take the hands out of the swing and use body rotation" - see Nick Faldo.
With proper hinge action, toe closure "is what it is", very precise and exact, no degrees of (just rides the installed hinge). To be picky, I don't know about labeling "it isn't that much." Because there certainly is closure. But certainly less than if one executes a swivel through impact (which is what I think your correct point is).
I'm with you on all of this. But as you say the FIRST thing is the proper UNDERSTANDING. Most of the pros have no clue from a conceptual standpoint about Hinging. Their instincts are amazing for sure. But if you have a chance to look at those Swingvisions and any that are out there. Typically the clubface is pretty "stable" through the ball. There is some closing but there is not a great deal of closing.
I'd say if you compared the clubface motion of the average golfer (and even more with a golf that has throwaway), you'd probably see a great deal of "wobble" in the clubface that you wouldn't see in a pro's motion.
Check out those swingvisions I posted. I'd like to hear your description of what is going on and what you are seeing. I'm not trying to be a pain'n'da'azz just trying to figure this stuff out. Many people say that Jim Furyck is a Vertical Hinge guy . . . I'm not so sure that we can say that definitively. I'll try to find a swingvision for him too.
...look at those Swingvisions and any that are out there. Typically the clubface is pretty "stable" through the ball. There is some closing but there is not a great deal of closing.
I'd say if you compared the clubface motion of the average golfer (and even more with a golf that has throwaway), you'd probably see a great deal of "wobble" in the clubface that you wouldn't see in a pro's motion.
Remember, you're nearing the bottom of a circle with a radius (Left Arm and Club) of some five feet. How much Clubface Closing can there actually be in the resulting Arc of the Impact Interval? Or, even more specifically, the 3/4 of an inch from Impact to Separation? Certainly not much. But, like the tide in your coffee cup, it is there.
Remember also that the #1 Snare in Golf is Steering, i.e., attempting to hold the Clubhead on the Target Line and the Clubface Square to that Line through Impact. And the tendency to Steer -- Under Roll -- is directly proportional to one's handicap. The higher the handicap, the greater the tendency to Steer. And vice versa!
Conversely, better players have largely overcome Steering (and its enabling henchman, Quitting) and Release the Club freely. In fact, as you have indicated, there may be an excessive Rotation -- Over Roll -- of the Left Wrist past its Vertical alignment for Impact. This puts the Clubshaft Out-of-Line with the Left Arm (thus destroying Rhythm) and results in a Throwaway just as damaging as the Horizontal Bending of the Wrist.
So, as a general rule, I would say that higher handicap players (particularly those with a Slicing problem) should attempt to Feel more Wrist Roll through Impact -- counter-clockwise rotation of the Hands -- and better players (particularly those with a Hooking problem) should Feel less (and maybe even none). Assuming correct Execution of the Hinge Action, the Clubface will perform identically for each player, despite their 'opposite' Feels.
Remember, you're nearing the bottom of a circle with a radius (Left Arm and Club) of some five feet. How much Clubface Closing can there actually be in the resulting Arc of the Impact Interval? Or, even more specifically, the 3/4 of an inch from Impact to Separation? Certainly not much. But, like the tide in your coffee cup, it is there.
Remember also that the #1 Snare in Golf is Steering, i.e., attempting to hold the Clubhead on the Target Line and the Clubface Square to that Line through Impact. And the tendency to Steer -- Under Roll -- is directly proportional to one's handicap. The higher the handicap, the greater the tendency to Steer. And vice versa!
Conversely, better players have largely overcome Steering (and its enabling henchman, Quitting) and Release the Club freely. In fact, as you have indicated, there may be an excessive Rotation -- Over Roll -- of the Left Wrist past its Vertical alignment for Impact. This puts the Clubshaft Out-of-Line with the Left Arm (thus destroying Rhythm) and results in a Throwaway just as damaging as the Horizontal Bending of the Wrist.
So, as a general rule, I would say that higher handicap players (particularly those with a Slicing problem) should attempt to Feel more Wrist Roll through Impact -- counter-clockwise rotation of the Hands -- and better players (particularly those with a Hooking problem) should Feel less (and maybe even none). Assuming correct Execution of the Hinge Action, the Clubface will perform identically for each player, despite their 'opposite' Feels.
Kaptain Green Drawz to the rescue!!! That is exactly what I was wanting/trying/meaning to say but . . . don't have the ability to make what's in my braincell come out in english words.
And as you so eloquently and expertly described . . . How much rotation can there be in 3/4 of an inch (maximum compression) not much . . . but that ball don't tell no lies and it for sure knows about each and every degree. A degree is a degree. But when you extend that line out 200 yards or so a degree or two is the difference between collecting a greenie and collecting a bill for a busted sliding glass door.
Good post! I must confess to be the Hooker you have described . . . Mike O stay off my corner!!!
Assuming Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A), the Clubface Closing Action from Release to Impact is a Swivel Action, i.e., the Turned Left Wrist returning to its Vertical alignment for Impact. Only from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through is there a Hinge Action, i.e., the Left Wrist remaining in its Vertical alignment to one of the three Associated Planes (Horizontal, Vertical or Angled).
So, as a general rule, I would say that higher handicap players (particularly those with a Slicing problem) should attempt to Feel more Wrist Roll through Impact -- counter-clockwise rotation of the Hands -- and better players (particularly those with a Hooking problem) should Feel less (and maybe even none). Assuming correct Execution of the Hinge Action, the Clubface will perform identically for each player, despite their 'opposite' Feels.
This is precisely what guys like me find most difficult to feel; let alone achieve the desired result from obtaining that feeling.
The more I swing out and down to right field and the more I then roll and swivel post impact the worse the results I get.
I see Tour players on TV hitting the ball seemingly dead straight from what seems to be almost an outside in path and contact directly on the rear of the ball. You could, almost, accuse them of steering the ball towards the target.
I see take aways for swingers and approaches into impact that are nothing more seemingly than paddle wheel motions. No laying of the club face against the inclined plane on, or immediately after, take away or any overt rolling of the club face from laying on plane to back to impact alignments on the down swing.
Seems to me that the descriptions of what really happens in the golf swing are very much overcooked in order to get an idea across.
Certainly, the more I try to fulfill the seemingly required criteria the worse the result. This can, of course, simply be down to me and inadequate execution - y'all quiet down now, ya hear!
On the other hand, if I just swing the club back, in and up, then down, out, in and up again, with the sole intention of just staying on plane and smacking the ball square in the A$$ in an attempt to propel it forwards, I achieve acceptable results.
This is precisely what guys like me find most difficult to feel; let alone achieve the desired result from obtaining that feeling.
The more I swing out and down to right field and the more I then roll and swivel post impact the worse the results I get.
I see Tour players on TV hitting the ball seemingly dead straight from what seems to be almost an outside in path and contact directly on the rear of the ball. You could, almost, accuse them of steering the ball towards the target.
I see take aways for swingers and approaches into impact that are nothing more seemingly than paddle wheel motions. No laying of the club face against the inclined plane on, or immediately after, take away or any overt rolling of the club face from laying on plane to back to impact alignments on the down swing.
Seems to me that the descriptions of what really happens in the golf swing are very much overcooked in order to get an idea across.
Certainly, the more I try to fulfill the seemingly required criteria the worse the result. This can, of course, simply be down to me and inadequate execution - y'all quiet down now, ya hear!
On the other hand, if I just swing the club back, in and up, then down, out, in and up again, with the sole intention of just staying on plane and smacking the ball square in the A$$ in an attempt to propel it forwards, I achieve acceptable results.
Maybe your action already has sufficient down and out, and your efforts to go down and out consciously is causing you to be underplane?
Maybe your action already has sufficient down and out, and your efforts to go down and out consciously is causing you to be underplane?
Could be so and that would explain the high, wide and relatively short swipes out to right field, not to mention the occasional, compensatory, OB left.
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