Thanks. very helpful. Still there is the issue of whether in fact the first move of the right shoulder is 'quick' or rather that it does not have to be slow (as it must be for the hitter). And the first direction the right shoulder takes (as a result of the left hip bump) is down and if that is right it is not a flywheel action of any sort, or so it seems to me. The flywheel action occurs as a result of the pivot action I take it and that comes after the weight shift. So it seems to me there are two moves that the right shoulder makes -- one in response to the hip bump (right shoulder down, also causing the axis tilt); the second is the flywheel as a result of the pivot/rotation. So even if the flywheel is quick motion it does not happen first. The right shoulder drops on plane first and does not spin -- though I recall seeing Lynn Blake referring the right shoulder spinning at the start of the downswing (in a swinger). I thought I saw that in one of his videos and I recall reading in TGM that the right shoulder moves quickly in a swinger at the start of the downswing; and that is the source of my confusion. For it seems to me that if the downswing starts from the ground up, the first move of the right shoulder is down the plane; and only then can there be any 'spinning' at all.
Am I mistaken? I am open to learning that I have this all wrong.
I am one of those golfers who isn't happy just having good swings; I have to feel I have good swings for the right reason; and I have to understand that I am doing it correctly. I am sure that this is a minority view as for most people good shots are reward enough. I wish I had more good shots of course, but I crave full understanding (or as close as I can get)
Hey Jules
Perhaps this will help, perhaps not.
-The "Axis" of Axis Tilt is the Shoulder Axis. Keeping the Head Centered a Sliding of the HIps will tilt the Axis. Meaning the Right Shoulder is lowered. A great thing especially if you are employing a Turned Shoulder Plane. The right shoulder does not "make" this move itself, on its own power. This Hip Slide by the way is a great way to stop the backward motion of the Hands and Arms. Hogan did it really early in Backswing by about the time his left arm was parallel to the ground or so. As in all Pivot Components in regard to 6M1 there is a little slack to be taken up before one Component can actually move the following component. A little muscular stretching prior to shortening.
-8-7 Startdown is the period or Shoulder Acceleration , 8-8 Downstroke is the period of Hand Acceleration , 8-9 Release is the period of Clubhead Acceleration , 8-10 Impact is the period of Ball Acceleration as defined by Homer. Therefor the Axis Tilt if it is employed at all, is prior to Startdown by definition as it does not accelerate the Right Shoulder towards Impact.
-The only thing in Homers world that is quick is the swingers instant initial hip (turn) acceleration and the resulting drive of the right shoulder down plane. As Lynn says "The Right Shoulder, spins , spins, spins like a fly wheel". Which courtesy of the #3 Pressure Point acting in its directional/aiming function, Hands to Pivot, is aligned to the Delivery Line not parallel to the ground like the normal flywheel you mention. Otherwise the Right Shoulder would not be traveling the Inclined Plane which is the entire objective of the Turned Shoulder Plane procedure. This spinning, rotational action of the Right Shoulder creates a CF induced automatic Throwout of the Left Arm (the period of Hand Acceleration) and then in turn the Club (the period of Clubhead Acceleration). We're talking swinging, Automatic Release and full power swings here. Less initial Hip Acceleration means less Loading, less Lag Pressure. And its Lag Pressure that regulates distance. Hogan with a half wedge did not spin his hips or right shoulder as quickly as he did with a driver for instance.
-The Hitter assuming a Three Barrel procedure (who doesnt employ his Right Shoulder like above), who stops at Top and therefore with less Shoulder Turn than those who stop at End, in Startdown leaves his Right Shoulder back, somewhat, as he thrusts his #1 , his active right arm extension. He is using his Right Shoulder as a, somewhat, non accelerating backstop to drive off of , like a launch pad for a rocket, say.
Ill defer to Luke or somebody else as to whether a 4 Barrel Hitter typically employs a slowish startdown. The Remax Long Drive guys dont but they dont even look for those shots, let alone have to play them. Im betting a 4B that is playing for score is typically slowish in Startdown for timing and execution reasons. But packing a real whollap at the bottom.
After what you did to that poor goat?!! Thanks for the analysis. An old dude comes up to me one day and says "I like your swing. Can I take a few pics?" Ordinarily that is enough to thrown down and go to fighting, but he had this high tech looking camera. Long story short he took a few pics. He sent me a bunch of proof sheets. I have not gone through them all. I do not think there are many more of this particular shot.
I agree with what you say. Face is a little shutty. Also what is happening here is that I am losing my spine angle a bit. I started off a little slumped (shoulder turn was too steep)so I flattened my approach by standing up and laying the shaft down. Solution: better posture with more knee bend. I still think that my major fault here is essentially a pivot stall. My right shoulder stops the right elbow straightens, thankfully not too soon as to cause a radical flattening of the right wrist When we thaw out here I will put up grainier before and after shots. My impact alignments have improved.
I do the same thing . . . but worse than you . . . . If you spine is getting vertical to soon may want to do some drilling OVERCOOKING the opposite. Get in the mirror and do some start down stuff where you actually increase your waist bend RADICALLY. Kinda like you were gonna squat down and pick something up in front of your left foot. Hips sliding forward and bootox going back toward the wall behind you and chest going down. From there imagine that you pick up a big rock and you is gonna sling it way up in the air out infront of you. That'll save the goat from what you were gonna do and the rock deal will let your hips go up and keep turning . . . no more stall.
I do the same thing . . . but worse than you . . . . If you spine is getting vertical to soon may want to do some drilling OVERCOOKING the opposite. Get in the mirror and do some start down stuff where you actually increase your waist bend RADICALLY. Kinda like you were gonna squat down and pick something up in front of your left foot. Hips sliding forward and bootox going back toward the wall behind you and chest going down. From there imagine that you pick up a big rock and you is gonna sling it way up in the air out infront of you. That'll save the goat from what you were gonna do and the rock deal will let your hips go up and keep turning . . . no more stall.
I deal with this issue with Swingers all the time. Your "Intention" should be to take your stroke to both Arms straight at Follow Through (6-A-4, Section 8-11). Only then will you be able to "swing through the ball, not at it" as Ken Venturi always stressed. To break a board in half karate style with your fist, you must take your force through the board, not at it.
When the player’s intention is to hit at the ball, the Pivot stops moving, the right arm (third side of the triangle assembly) straightens too soon, and low point bottoms out before the club gets to the ball. If you tried to break a board that way, you may as well call the emergency room and tell them to expect you shortly.
The computer between the ears won't allow you to continue to hit the ground behind the ball so a) the center must move away from the ball (getting to really know your Goat) or b) excessive Throwaway is employed.
Takes a few old golf clubs and hurl them down the range when no one is around and there is nothing that can break behind you as Jack Burke Sr. and more recently Fred Shoemaker use as a corner stone to their teaching. If you have a video camera, record your motion. You will be amazed when your intention changes from "at" to "through". Your Pivot keeps moving, your Right Arm remains bent at Impact, your acceleration improves and you now comply with 1-L-15. All this just because you changed your intent.
Great stuff Drew! I have been mulling over posture-related stuff recently. I think I straighten my spine on the downstroke as a compensation for a spine angle that is too steep to begin with. Rereading Hogan's Five Modern Fundamentals I was taken back by the method hogan used to organize himself at address.
1. Stand erect.
2. Lower arms
3. Flex knees while keeping the spine erect
4. Bow head from the neck without hunching the shoulders.
The spine angle in his case is created by the out of line condition that exists between a straight spine and flexed knees.
Between the straight spine and flexed knees you cannot help but have a flat shoulder and hip turn, right? My point is that perhaps I am better served with a more "upright" torso posture as opposed to increasing the bend coming down?
On the pics of Hogan the degree of waistbend from a 7 iron to a driver is negligible. Not something I notices before. The amount of knee bend (obscured by tailored pants) and neck bend is what makes it look different at first glance. A lot of tour types stand tall.
I deal with this issue with Swingers all the time. Your "Intention" should be to take your stroke to both Arms straight at Follow Through (6-A-4, Section 8-11). Only then will you be able to "swing through the ball, not at it" as Ken Venturi always stressed. To break a board in half karate style with your fist, you must take your force through the board, not at it.
When the player’s intention is to hit at the ball, the Pivot stops moving, the right arm (third side of the triangle assembly) straightens too soon, and low point bottoms out before the club gets to the ball. If you tried to break a board that way, you may as well call the emergency room and tell them to expect you shortly.
The computer between the ears won't allow you to continue to hit the ground behind the ball so a) the center must move away from the ball (getting to really know your Goat) or b) excessive Throwaway is employed.
Takes a few old golf clubs and hurl them down the range when no one is around and there is nothing that can break behind you as Jack Burke Sr. and more recently Fred Shoemaker use as a corner stone to their teaching. If you have a video camera, record your motion. You will be amazed when your intention changes from "at" to "through". Your Pivot keeps moving, your Right Arm remains bent at Impact, your acceleration improves and you now comply with 1-L-15. All this just because you changed your intent.
Nice stuff Drewit.
The concept of Thrusting all the way Down and Out, cross line to Both Arms Straight, Follow Through is lost on a lot of people I think. At best most people start steering the Thrust towards the hole at Low Point at worst from End.
Folks there is more down and out to be had post Low Point even when the Hands and Clubhead are traveling Up and In! See 1-L-15. Although it even states "but the Thrust continues Down Plane during Follow Through"!!
Drew, I love that bit about the intention of hitting at the ball and how it effects the pivot. The club throwing thing. Got to try that sometime.
I deal with this issue with Swingers all the time. Your "Intention" should be to take your stroke to both Arms straight at Follow Through (6-A-4, Section 8-11). Only then will you be able to "swing through the ball, not at it" as Ken Venturi always stressed. ......
A great exercise is to start from the follow through, and then move the club in reverse to impact by bending the right elbow. Check out how much right elbow bend you have at impact on your way to both arms straight. Arms straight is easy, arms straight at follow through is knowledge-based and therefore trickier.
A great exercise is to start from the follow through, and then move the club in reverse to impact by bending the right elbow. Check out how much right elbow bend you have at impact on your way to both arms straight. Arms straight is easy, arms straight at follow through is knowledge-based and therefore trickier.
WOW, thats one I had not seen or heard. I LOVE it!!!
Thanks Okie, I've got a new great drill.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
It is pretty much the same drill that Yoda does with locating the right shoulder downplane in order to achieve the requisite amount of follow through. He demos this on Disc 3 of Alignment Golf. The deeper (for the lack of a better term) the follow through the more the right shoulder is located down the face of the plane, thereby preventing the right arm from running out like Bucket's does in a slap fight!
Thanks for the analysis. An old dude comes up to me one day and says "I like your swing. Can I take a few pics?" Ordinarily that is enough to thrown down and go to fighting, but he had this high tech looking camera. Long story short he took a few pics. He sent me a bunch of proof sheets. I have not gone through them all. I do not think there are many more of this particular shot. 
When we thaw out here I will put up grainier before and after shots. My impact alignments have improved.
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