Right Lynn, zero hip turn automatically produces zero hip action, "the or none at all" is straight out of 10-15-b delayed hip action, which would be incompatible if you are using no hip turn e.g. A ten foot putt
So the "or none at all" that is in the description of 10-15-b DELAYED HIP ACTION could not have been referring to those strokes where no hip turn is necessary because zero hip turn and delayed hip action are incompatible components.
I see what you're saying, Whip, and I agree with your premise as stated. What we're having a hard time with here is that I wasn't talking about the Delayed Downstroke Hip Action. Instead, I was referring to the Zeroed Backstroke Hip Turn! Here's my quote -- I've bolded the word 'Turn' -- from my post to Par71:
Originally Posted by Yoda
The "or none at all" you bolded refers to those Strokes where no Hip Turn -- pre-cleared or otherwise -- is necessary, e.g., a ten-foot putt. :
That is the same differentiation Homer Kelley made when he said "Use this Hip Turn to prevent Overswinging." He was talking about a specific methodology to effect a Backstroke Hip Turn (from Zero to Free) in preparation for its Delayed Action in Start Down.
My simple example was deliberately not about Hip Action. It was about the Zero Turn. I used a ten-foot putt as my example because it so readily demonstrates the "none at all" Hip Turn PRINCIPLE.
Bottom line for readers as we 'move on' from here:
Each of the 24 Components in TGM has its separate identity. The Components coordinate in accordance with a given Stroke Pattern and its listed Variations, but nevertheless they remain independent. It is all too easy to mix things up -- to attach one thing to another as if they were inseparable -- and so inhibit a true and precise understanding.
I understand your point lynn and how the none at all refers to a zeroed hip turn (which makes a perfect example), for the backstroke regardless of the delayed downstroke hip action, You were not talking about delayed hip action, but par 71 was, and it is he who posed the question in which u responded. I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I don't think par71s question was responded regarding the "or none at all" certainly if you were not talking about the delayed hip action (as he was) and instead talking about zero hip turn in the backstroke
Thanks for your thoughtful replies. They are very helpful.
I understand that Delayed Hip Action with preturned Hips will assure Clearing of the Right Hip. But preturning the Hips is not mandatory for Delayed Hip Action, is it? Homer says "Turn the Hips a predetermined amount - or none at all - and then semi-lock them at that point before starting back with either the Shoulders or the Club." (Bold by me.)
I took the quote in my first post above to mean that Delayed Hip Action even without preturned Hips would assure Clearing of the Right Hip, whereas Standard Hip Action would not. Maybe that was not intended.
Whip - My quotes are from the 7th edition.
Q:Is pre turning of the hips mandatory for delayed hip action? A:No
Q:does delayed hip action even without pre turning the hips assure clearing of the right hip( in reference to the final sentence of 10-15-b as only stated in the 7th edition)?A: delayed hip action is the only variation that IS CAPABLE of assuring clearing of the right hip in both directions. Homer talks about how he cannot state every obvious implication. The only way to assure clearance is to pre turn the hip, if i am wrong please tell me if it is possible and explain how it would be possible to assure clearance of the right hip even without pre turning using delayed hip action.
Q:does standard hip action assure clearing of the right hip? A:No
Q:Is pre turning of the hips mandatory for delayed hip action? A:No
Q:does delayed hip action even without pre turning the hips assure clearing of the right hip( in reference to the final sentence of 10-15-b as only stated in the 7th edition)?A: delayed hip action is the only variation that IS CAPABLE of assuring clearing of the right hip in both directions. Homer talks about how he cannot state every obvious implication. The only way to assure clearance is to pre turn the hip, if i am wrong please tell me if it is possible and explain how it would be possible to assure clearance of the right hip even without pre turning using delayed hip action.
Q:does standard hip action assure clearing of the right hip? A:No
Why doesn't standard hip action assure clearing of the right hip??? I don't think I've ever read that in TGM...
Why doesn't standard hip action assure clearing of the right hip??? I don't think I've ever read that in TGM...
The only way to assure the right hip is cleared in both directions is to pre-clear it as described In 10-15-b delayed hip action.You cannot be sure you will execute an action unless you pre-execute that action before starting your motion, thereby assuring you have done it before your very own eyes before the process has even started, it's sort of like cheating, in a good way.
Another question, can you pre-clear the right hip and still use standard hip action?
The only way to assure the right hip is cleared in both directions is to pre-clear it as described In 10-15-b delayed hip action.You cannot be sure you will execute an action unless you pre-execute that action before starting your motion, thereby assuring you have done it before your very own eyes before the process has even started, it's sort of like cheating, in a good way.
Another question, can you pre-clear the right hip and still use standard hip action?
Sixth edition reads....
7-15 HIP ACTION The hip action category is included to separate the "motion" of the hips from any work they may accomplish.
The work the hip action does, is to lead and pull the shoulders back and down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications.. Forgetting to shift the weight or clear the right hip is difficult if the hips are initiating the shoulder turn--in either direction......
Seventh edition reads slightly different...
7-15 HIP ACTION The hip action category is included to separate the "motion" of the hips from any work they may accomplish.
The work the hip action does, is to lead and pull the shoulders back and down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications.. Forgetting to shift the weight or clear the right hip is difficult if the hips are initiating the DOWNSTROKE shoulder turn--in either direction......
Then both editions go on to say..
With swingers using the arc of approach this actuation may be executed as a throwing of the right shoulder by the hips, as in 10-19-C
Hip action must not be haphazard. It is a pivot component that must be carefully timed and sequenced to sustain the continuity and spacing of the pivot train(of components). Omitting the hip action unintentionally will disrupt the feel as well as the continuity of the entire pivot(see 6-b-3-0 regarding pivot rhythm)
I understand your point lynn and how the none at all refers to a zeroed hip turn (which makes a perfect example), for the backstroke regardless of the delayed downstroke hip action, You were not talking about delayed hip action, but par 71 was, and it is he who posed the question in which u responded. I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I don't think par71s question was responded regarding the "or none at all" certainly if you were not talking about the delayed hip action (as he was) and instead talking about zero hip turn in the backstroke.
Whip,
With love in my heart, I write this Open Letter to you.
Scrolling through all the posts in this thread, there is no doubt that you have a wonderful understanding . . . of all you understand. You also skillfully articulate that understanding and defend it with passion. Bravo!
But . . . you also have a big missing piece. (Please don't take this last statement and the 'point-counterpoint' in this thread personally; it is how we learn.) And that missing piece was the subject of my first post here (#5); specifically, the Hitter's Angle of Approach Procedure (2-J-3 / B). It is this procedure that necessitated -- indeed required in Homer Kelley's own case -- the Pre-Turned Right Hip.
The Angle of Approach procedure and its derived Angle of Approach Plane Angle dictated that a more "inside" Path be made for the Hands in the Backstroke. That Path had nothing to do with Standard Hip Turn (Hips leading Shoulders) or Delayed Hip Turn (Shoulders leading Hips) or whatever. It had solely to do with Homer Kelley realizing that he had to pre-clear his own Right Hip so that his Hands could take the very Steep (but Inside) Backstroke Path. In so doing , the Clubhead could then COVER (not 'Point at' or 'Trace') the Angle of Approach Plane Line.
And COVERING the Angle of Approach (with the Clubhead) is what the Angle of Approach procedure is all about. If the Clubhead merely 'points' at the Angle of Approach (to the originating, geometric 10-5-A Plane Line), then you would be Tracing it, as if it were a 'normal' Closed Plane Line (10-5-E) with its own unique Angle of Approach (and Attack). And that ain't the case: The Angle of Approach Plane retains the identical Impact and Low Points of the original Geometric Plane Line. As Homer so eloquently (and to most readers, mysteriously) stated in the 6th edition, "There is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure . . . " .
That last quote is not in your book (I understand you have the 4th edition). Nor is it in the 5th. In fact, Section 2-J-3, the player's Visual Equivalents of the true On Plane Angle of Attack and Arc of Attack, did not even exist in the first three editions of The Golfing Machine. These were the things, Homer would say, that "seeped through slowly". As the Good Lord gave him more time, he wrote them down.
Section 2-J-3 was introduced in the 4th edition and revised extensively over the next four years in the 5th and 6th editions. Still, he wasn't satisfied, and he continued to tweak the verbiage. A final version (transcribed from revisions he left) appeared in the 7th edition, 23 years after his death. None of the information in the earlier editions was wrong, it was just that Homer tried desperately in so many different ways to get the same points across to us . . . points that to him seemed so self-evident and simple, but which he learned we simply could not understand.
Personally, I think mastery of the two Visual Equivalents and their two procedures (Swinger's Arc of Approach and Hitter's Angle of Approach) requires an understanding of Section 2-J-3 in each of the editions 4, 5, 6, and 7. If you don't have those editions, well, you don't have them. One more reason to search my archives.
Putting a red ribbon around our personal give-and-take over the last couple of days, the Pre-Turned Right Hip is not so much a Delayed Hip Action procedure as it is an enabling Angle of Approach procedure.
For 'the rest of us' -- if you've read this far -- I know this post sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook. To which I can only say, in its defense, that it is correct and that it will be worthwhile to those whose journey takes them there. Knowing that, I can sleep. Otherwise . . .
This was a very important subject! This stuff is hard and by complicating an already complex subject (although seemingly counterproductive) you actually simplify your understanding by becoming aware of all relevant factors, implications, details, intentions, exceptions, and descriptions. Then you get the "whole picture"!!!!!
From 2-STHE WHOLE PICTURE "The whole picture is your total visualization of all the individual visualizations of specific areas. Both the total and individual pictures must, in their beginnings, be vague and disjointed. But the paint-pots of study and experience will continually and evenly brighten, clarify and integrate your entire album"
P.S. i have 4th,5th,6th, and 7th editions, I will refer to those. Also, I will surely keep up my "posting stats" with the hope that I may convey some valuable understanding--- that is to say at least of what I do understand...
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