KEEP THE RIGHT ELBOW IN FRONt OF THE RIGHT HIP THROUGH RFT OR A FULLY STRAIGHTENED RIGHT LEG
Hi ICT,
I don't think the solution is thinking about keeping the right elbow in front of the right hip as Tomasello says. I think that it's the correct GOAL but I don't think it's the way to go about achieving it.
I only viewed the video one time so forgive me if I missed something, but the proper solution is to use a steeper plane.
Use the Right Forearm Take-Away to gain a Steeper Plane, preferably, one of the Shoulder Planes. And, with any of the Shoulder Planes, the Right Elbow will "Clear" (move in front) the Right Hip (Actually, the Plane is what locates the Right Elbow). Trying to keep the Right Elbow in Front of the Right Hip will only Shorten your Backstroke.
And just as important, is Posture. Knees straight and bending from the waist works very well for the Elbow Plane, but a Flatter shoulder turn Backstroke, bending knees, weight slightly back, is compatible with shoulder planes.
The Pivot moves the Right Shoulder and the Right Shoulder Path is going to be a Straight Line Down-Plane, or Over the Plane or Under the Plane.
Under Plane path of the Right Shoulder sticks the Elbow at your side. Over-Plane is not forgivable.
If you don't like the Right Forearm Take-Away, you can use one of the "Turning Shoulder Planes".
I don't think the solution is thinking about keeping the right elbow in front of the right hip as Tomasello says. I think that it's the correct GOAL but I don't think it's the way to go about achieving it.
I only viewed the video one time so forgive me if I missed something, but the proper solution is to use a steeper plane.
Use the Right Forearm Take-Away to gain a Steeper Plane, preferably, one of the Shoulder Planes. And, with any of the Shoulder Planes, the Right Elbow will "Clear" (move in front) the Right Hip (Actually, the Plane is what locates the Right Elbow). Trying to keep the Right Elbow in Front of the Right Hip will only Shorten your Backstroke.
And just as important, is Posture. Knees straight and bending from the waist works very well for the Elbow Plane, but a Flatter shoulder turn Backstroke, bending knees, weight slightly back, is compatible with shoulder planes.
The Pivot moves the Right Shoulder and the Right Shoulder Path is going to be a Straight Line Down-Plane, or Over the Plane or Under the Plane.
Under Plane path of the Right Shoulder sticks the Elbow at your side. Over-Plane is not forgivable.
If you don't like the Right Forearm Take-Away, you can use one of the "Turning Shoulder Planes".
I tried Turning Shoulder Plane Takeaway after many "bucket drills" and remembered to keep the right elbow in front of the right hip, ball in front of left foot for driver by 6 inches then shading back and the results were SWEET!
Bent Right Wrist stayed perfectly still! The Pivot did all the work lagging the TSP takeaway up and down! So good to be able to step through a shot! Here is some TSP relevant research to the RFAOA (right Forearm Angle of Approach).
Quote:
innercityteacher
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Keen insight from Lynn about Impact Fix and the Right Forearm Angle of Approach!
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Directing Thrust At An On Plane Aiming Point
Originally Posted by rchang72
Just wanted to get input on this. I drew a couple sketches of my impressions of the inclined plane.
My understanding is that we continue the downstroke through impact towards the low point with the down, out and forward. Only then does one come upward into the finish.
So should the actual aiming point along the plane line that is underground (i.e. a little forward of the impact point, and more outside the target line)? Any thoughts?
[Bold by Yoda.]
Very nice, rchang! Because your simple question demands a not so simple answer, I have actually given two answers: the Basic Answer (Item #3) and the Advanced Version (Item #6). Accordingly, I've moved your post to the Advanced Section where any discussion of points #4-#6 should take place. Hang on...this is going to get a little sticky, especially for the newer students.
1. The Target Line could also be labeled the Impact Point Plane Line, and the line passing through the Low Point could be labeled Low Point Plane Line. There should be nothing mysterious about these lablels: They merely identify parallel lines that co-exist on the face of the same Inclined Plane and that pass through two defined points.
2. The Impact Point Plane Line does indeed rest atop the ground, whereas the Low Point Plane Line is in the ground, but again, on the same Inclined Plane.
3. Here then, is the Basic Answer to your question: Because the two Lines are parallel, when you point at one -- with the Tracing Right Forearm and #3 Lag Pressure Point -- you simultaneously point at the other. Therefore, it is sufficient to direct your Thrust at -- but through! -- an Aiming Point on the Impact Point Plane Line.
But, as promised, there is more!
4. The Three-Dimensional Direction of Thrust -- Downward, Outward and Forward -- will be that defined by the Delivery Path of the Hands (7-23). This concept is most clearly illustrated by Photo 10-23-A #1.
5. This Delivery Path Line of Thrust is established at Impact Fix and is parallel to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach: Note (1) the Right Forearm in Photo 10-19-A #2 is pointing directly at the Impact Point Plane Line but well in front of the Ball; and (2) that the Right Forearm is parallel to the Delivery Path. Thus, the Right Forearm Angle of Approach precisely defines:
a. The parallel Delivery Path of the Hands;
b. The Right Forearm's own Cross Line (but On Plane) Thrust through Impact; and also
c. The Angle of Approach of the Clubhead (through the Inside Aft qadrant of the Ball where the eye directs the Delivery Path Thrust via Pressure Point #3 (7-3 and 7-11).
[Note: Photo 10-19-A #2 is meant to depict Drive Loading, not the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. This is the first time -- and possibly the last -- that I will use a photo for a purpose beyond its captioned intent. The reason I've done so is that there is no better photo in the book with which to illustrate this esoteric concept.]
6. So, here then, is the Advanced Answer to your question: The Aiming Point -- established at Impact Fix -- is located at the intersection of the Impact Point Plane Line and the Three-Dimensional Line of Thrust defined by Delivery Path of the Hands and its parallel Right Forearm Angle of Approach. It is precisely down that Line that you direct your #3 Pressure Point Thrust -- Down Plane through the Impact Point and Low Point until Both Arms are Straight (1-L-15).
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02-09-2005, 10:10 AM
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The Angle Of The Turned Shoulder Plane Angle
Originally Posted by EdZ
Great post lynn.
From a hypothetical view point -
If the impact point plane line and the 'underground' plane line were the same (the ball on a tee, exact, perfect low point separation). What angle with the ground would an 'ideal' line of thrust be for the right forearm?
(Assume a perpendicular to the ground primary lever, and turned shoulder plane).
From a down-the-Line view, the Right Forearm during Impact will be on the angle of the Turned Shoulder Plane. This Ideal Plane Angle should not be thought of in terms of an absolute degree of Tilt. Instead, it will vary:
1. From Club to Club (Steeper for the shorter Clubs and Flatter for the longer Clubs per 7-5/6/7);
2. Between Hitters and Swingers (the Shorter Shoulder Turn of the Hitter requires a Steeper Plane per 2-H); and
3. From Player to Player (the less flexible players may have a shorter Shoulder Turn and therefore use a Steeper Plane).
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#3
02-09-2005, 11:38 AM
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Establishing The Clubshaft's Forward Lean
Originally Posted by EdZ
Thanks, I'll have to incubate a bit on the shoulder turn vs. plane, which while it makes sense, I wonder if it is more a matter of anatomy than geometry.
What would your perspective be from a face on view?
The Clubshaft's Forward Lean (2-J-2) through Impact and the Right Forearm's Angle of Approach are dictated by:
1. Club design (2-G);
2. Plane Angle and the consequent Clubhead Line Of Flight (2-N-O);
2. Ball Location (3-F-7-E); and
3. The degree of Right Wrist Bend established at Impact Fix (6-C-2-A).
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ICT
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From The Top -- Your Way
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
rwh,
I believe that Doyle and Hebron are talking about transporting the hands with the pivot. I'm talking about the the hands dropping to release point during the pivot, the shaft staying close to the Right Shoulder and the Right Elbow moving in front of the right hip.
[Bold by Yoda.]
MJ,
For a number of reasons, the ideal Swing Plane is the Turned Shoulder Plane (10-6-B). Further, this may be accomplished with Zero Shift (10-7-A) -- that is, the Hands adhere to this Plane Angle throughout the Stroke and execute a Straight Line Delivery Path (10-23-A) to the Ball.
However, the procedure you have described -- "the hands dropping to Release point during the pivot" -- is a viable alternative and is catalogued as the Angled Line Delivery Path (10-23-D). That is, as the Leading Body Transports the Lagging Power Package to Release, the Hands take a nearly Vertical path to the Elbow Plane Angle before they drive directly at and through the Aiming Point.
There is no inconsistency here. There is only Homer Kelley's genius:
Straight Line or Angled Line. Your choice.
And there is no right or wrong. Only personal preference.
This is truth.
This is The Golfing Machine.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
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Establishing The Clubshaft's Forward Lean
Originally Posted by EdZ
Thanks, I'll have to incubate a bit on the shoulder turn vs. plane, which while it makes sense, I wonder if it is more a matter of anatomy than geometry.
What would your perspective be from a face on view?
The Clubshaft's Forward Lean (2-J-2) through Impact and the Right Forearm's Angle of Approach are dictated by:
1. Club design (2-G);
2. Plane Angle and the consequent Clubhead Line Of Flight (2-N-O);
3. Ball Location (3-F-7-E); and
4. The degree of Right Wrist Bend established at Impact Fix (6-C-2-A).
Thank's EdZ. You know your stuff.
Answer: all 4
One more
5. Distance at Impact between the Right Shoulder and Low-Point
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-19-2012 at 08:55 PM.
Is anyone watching "Our Longest Drive" on TGC? It is quite sentimental and I like it! I feel like all you readers who read but don't chime in are like the dead guy 'Mike," strange and interesting, needing to be carried everywhere, sometimes.
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-19-2012 at 09:58 PM.
Is anyone watching "Our Longest Drive" on TGC? It is quite sentimental and I like it! I feel like all you readers who read but don't chime in are like the dead guy 'Mike," strange and interesting, needing to be carried everywhere, sometimes.
Plane great golf! I have played two rounds using Daryl's Right Forearm Angle of Approach insights after putting my clubs away for the season, and shot a 44/42 and a 44/41 even with terrible chipping. There were so many easy going bogies on my cards I knew my technique had improved. Daryl's next tip, changing my Low Point by putting the ball 6" in front of my left foot and feet almost together had me flushing every club through greens and chipping from new places I had not seen on a course I have been playing for 20 years.
And today, I figured out how to get to The Turned Shoulder Plane by Swinging less not more. My heel lift/short shoulder turn put my right shoulder back on plane time and again resulting in consistently powerful Acquired Motions that I could translate in a 70 something round.
Having understood the Right Forearm Angle of Approach, and the Adjustable Low Point with Daryl's bucket drill (keeping a weighted bucket in the fingers of the right hand (Impact Fix) and Pivoting back and through without spilling out golf balls), the question arises as to which Plane to use, and as usual, Lynn has a great series of descriptions.
- Hands higher at impact than they were at address
- Clubshaft on a steeper plane that at address
Therefore, there's really nothing wrong with this. I'm sure others here can tell you why for certain, and also tell you why it happens.
I'm not sure, so I'll let them handle the explaining.
I hear you, Robot Buddy R2D2!
Due to the Shoulder Turn Axis Tilt, i.e., the tilt of the Spine producedby the Hip Turn Component (7-14), the Left Shoulder is higher at Impact (per7-8 ) than at Adjusted Address (8-3). This raising of the Left Shoulder alsoresults in the higher Hands you have observed. Both the higher Shoulder and thehigher Hands are almost always subconscious reactions that have never beensubject to any conscious Geometric Programming. However, astute students ofG.O.L.F. can avoid this compensated circumstance by positioning properlyfor the correct Shoulder-to-Ball distance at Impact Fix (8-2 and 7-8 ) per theprecision address routine of 2-J-1.
The steeper Plane phenomenon occurs because, while the Clubshaft must start itsjourney on its own Angle of Inclination -- the Elbow Plane (10-6-A) -- it isnot unusual for a player to use a totally different Inclined Plane during theDownstroke (and probably the Backstroke as well).
For example, the player may choose to begin the Stroke on the Elbow Plane andthen use the Single Shift (10-7-B) to locate the Turned Shoulder Plane (10-6-B)at the Top (8-6). The player could then use the Double Shift (10-7-C) to returnto the original Elbow Plane for Impact or alternatively, remain on the TurnedShoulder Plane. The first option would result in the same Plane at Impact as atAddress. The second would be the steeper Plane you have observed.
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My issue now is what plane to adopt as part of a consistent pattern for golfing success. The bucket drill seems to leave me on on the Elbow Plane but the lack of compensations from the Turned Shoulder Plane make it very interesting. I have shot a 76, 77, 78, two 79's and many 80's this summer not knowing this stuff when my putting and chipping was hot. Sadly, I have had a dozen 87's or worse as well. The goal is to regularly have a chance at par and sub-par!
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-20-2012 at 09:46 PM.
Knowing what I do about RFAOA, and the Turned Shoulder Plane could I avoid my messed up lower body with multiple hip operations and set up Impact Fix, lag my hands up to the Turned Shoulder Plane with a slight Shoulder Takeaway to Acquired Motion, and simply step left?
Is there something that violates the Law of Flail or any of the Imperatives in this type of motion? It seems like l am always trying to tone down excess movement!
Insights welcome. This is meant as a discussion question.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-20-2012 at 11:02 PM.
Knowing what I do about RFAOA, and the Turned Shoulder Plane could I avoid my messed up lower body with multiple hip operations and set up Impact Fix, lag my hands up to the Turned Shoulder Plane with a slight Shoulder Takeaway to Acquired Motion, and simply step left?
Is there something that violates the Law of Flail or any of the Imperatives in this type of motion? It seems like l am always trying to tone down excess movement!
Insights welcome. This is meant as a discussion question.
Ok so leading with "Pivot Controlled Hands" is a set of mistakes waiting to happen.
Yes the #3pp , the entire Right Foream Flying Wedge (which near Impact has rotated onto the Inclined Plane too) and for some the Right Shoulder crush the Aiming Point which in on the Arc of Approach.
Relevant to this discussion, the glossary's definition of the Pivot.....(its role for the TGM golfer given independent arm and pivot motion)
Quote:
PIVOT Example -revolving door.
Mechanical -That motion of the body moving around a center point.
Golf- A multiple universal-joint assembly between the Stationary Head and the Stationary Feet holding the Clubshaft "On Plane" by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly , through the #3 Accumulator , as directed by the Right Forearm.
Homer said " Stationary Head" but I believe it could read "Stationary PIvot Center" which gives you options other than the head literally speaking. I love the way this definition establishes a hierarchy between Pivot and Right Forearm. Homer said we'd all feel like we were tossing a ball. Dont get me wrong the Pivot is important, it is Zone 1 after all. But the pitcher on the mound is not rifling a fast ball with his pivot alone. He probably isnt thinking about his pivot, after training. YOu dont say "what a pivot on that guy", you say "what an arm on that son of a..." etc.
This means that (with the exception of Startdown) the Shoulders can travel in a different direction than the Hands. Which sounds complicated, but we do it all the time , all day long. We are "wired" to do so. Putting your thoughts on your Pivot messes things up (although its necessary when specifically training your pivot). All you need to do is to take your bent right hand to right shoulder high.........like you were reaching for something. If you can establish a TSP at Top then you wont need to re arrange things (shift planes) so the Pivot (the Right Shoulder) can pull the Hands downplane in Startdown with the #4 still fully loaded......delayed Release, Delivery of the Power Package to its Release Point. Its this last point that everyone tries to manage I think. But I believe you can do it effectively , easily without a significant Plane Shift or an uncomfortably high Shoulder Turn. Without strapping your arms to your chest. Homer's Standard Shoulder Turn seems odd at first but its brilliant. With independent arm and pivot motion ,your arms can flow freely from the body , freewheeling AND Aligned even when the Body is pulling them down in Startdown (given a TSP). Even if you are non Auto Release Throw and Hand manipulating etc. Im not just talking passive wrists , fully auto, Swinging here. The baseball pitchers right arm is thrown and his hand manipulation creates the curve ......... His pivot accelerates his arm and then his arm accelerates even more away from his body
Ok, RFT not Pivot Controlled hands!
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-20-2012 at 11:32 PM.
I have shot a 76, 77, 78, two 79's and many 80's this summer not knowing this stuff when my putting and chipping was hot. Sadly, I have had a dozen 87's or worse as well. The goal is to regularly have a chance at par and sub-par!
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