I need to make a "Fine Point". It's pretty advanced but I think everyone can handle it and not lose sleep tonight. "Swiveling" and "Turn and Roll" are not opposites nor are they related. "Turn and Roll" is one concept, separate. "Swiveling and "Hinging" are related. They are Two different ways that the Clubface moves through the impact interval. Hitters Only Hinge. Swingers use a Hinge and Swivel but its not a Hand Swivel. Swingers use a "Release Swivel" whereby as the Hands move down Plane during the Pulley, the Clubface moves from On Plane to Vertical at Low Point. This Swivel is compatible with Hinging whereas Hand Swivels are not.
I lost sleep;
"EXACTLY", the best you can put it into words. Where does the "release swivel" occur for the swinger?
The Release Swivel starts at Release and ends at Both Arms Straight.
2 Choices. 2 very simple demonstrations.
Release with Extensor Action/Throw-out Swivel
Release with Extensor Action/Drive-out no-Swivel
Demonstration 1 - Swingers:
Right Arm only.
Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
Lower the Palm while keeping the Elbow at your side. This is Extensor Action.
So, straightening the Right Arm by lowering the hand caused the Clubface to change its Alignment from On-Plane to Vertical for impact and the Right Hand became Aligned with the Elbow and Right Shoulder. Extensor Action without the #1 Accumulator.
So, the Release Swivel begins when the right arm begins to straighten (Release) and Ends when the Right Arm is Straight (Both Arms Straight).
Demonstration 2 - Hitters:
Right Arm only.
Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
Straighten the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away from you (Don't lower the Right Hand).
So, straightening the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away caused the right Elbow to move into a straight Alignment with the Hand and Shoulder. Straightening the Elbow by using the #1 Accumulator does not change the Vertical Clubface Alignment. Extensor Action with the #1 Accumulator, no Swivel.
These demonstrations can be easily performed On-Plane with the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. I think that a lot of the confusion occurs while trying to understand and use Extensor Action. Extensor Action is not the #1 Accumulator however, it does use the same muscle group and they can be used simultaneously.
The Release Swivel starts at Release and ends at Both Arms Straight.
2 Choices. 2 very simple demonstrations.
Release with Extensor Action/Throw-out Swivel
Release with Extensor Action/Drive-out no-Swivel
Demonstration 1 - Swingers:
Right Arm only.
Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
Lower the Palm while keeping the Elbow at your side. This is Extensor Action.
So, straightening the Right Arm by lowering the hand caused the Clubface to change its Alignment from On-Plane to Vertical for impact and the Right Hand became Aligned with the Elbow and Right Shoulder. Extensor Action without the #1 Accumulator.
So, the Release Swivel begins when the right arm begins to straighten (Release) and Ends when the Right Arm is Straight (Both Arms Straight).
Demonstration 2 - Hitters:
Right Arm only.
Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
Straighten the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away from you (Don't lower the Right Hand).
So, straightening the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away caused the right Elbow to move into a straight Alignment with the Hand and Shoulder. Straightening the Elbow by using the #1 Accumulator does not change the Vertical Clubface Alignment. Extensor Action with the #1 Accumulator, no Swivel.
These demonstrations can be easily performed On-Plane with the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. I think that a lot of the confusion occurs while trying to understand and use Extensor Action. Extensor Action is not the #1 Accumulator however, it does use the same muscle group and they can be used simultaneously.
Thanks Daryl
I now realize that we have much different geometry.
my left stays flat, wertical and moveing from cocked to uncocked-release to both arms straight.
My right stays vertical, level and bent and only releases bent as necessary after impact.
This, for me , is dual horizontal hinge.
The bones in my forearms do not change their relative position, release to arms streight.
We therefore have "differences" in extensor action application.
I thing I am OK with what HK wrote.
Thanks Daryl
I now realize that we have much different geometry.
my left stays flat, wertical and moveing from cocked to uncocked-release to both arms straight.
My right stays vertical, level and bent and only releases bent as necessary after impact.
This, for me , is dual horizontal hinge.
The bones in my forearms do not change their relative position, release to arms streight.
We therefore have "differences" in extensor action application.
I thing I am OK with what HK wrote.
HB
Well, Vertical to the ground at Impact, for the Left Wrist, is also Vertical to the Plane of the Left Wrist Cock. But for the Right Forearm Wedge, Vertical to the Ground is not the same as Vertical to the Plane . Both Wedges are Vertical to their respective Planes at Impact. That puts them at 90 degrees to each other.
It doesn't sound like your Right Forearm Wedge is On-Plane at Impact.
I lost sleep;
"EXACTLY", the best you can put it into words. Where does the "release swivel" occur for the swinger?
HB
My answer : it starts at the Release Point (which is variable)
Slightly longer answer: and ends at the beginning of Hinge Action.
Or if you prefer a really longer answer with some patented rambling:
Same with Finish Swivel:starts where Hinge Action ends and finishes with the ..... wait for it... Left Hand on the bottom of the plane / right hand on the top assuming a V/V grip type.
This sounds weird I know , but when Swinging it can feel like one big Roll from Release to Finish Swivel . But it isnt just any old Roll it is an Roll that has specific alignments .... which you alluded to in a previous post.
And now for some rambling:
BTW Bear you said your axis of rotation is the spine. I think there is more to the story and its a major point of departure for many a golf theorist.
In startdown , yes the tilted axis of rotation (spine) drives the Right Shoulder down plane (assuming a Turned Shoulder Plane procedure and I do recommend it) this is the period of shoulder acceleration . But there is another lever IMO. The straight left arm attached to the pivot at the left shoulder accelerates away from the pivot thereby accelerating the hands to a speed that the pivot could never achieve. The hands are travelling at faster speed than the RPM of the pivot alone would ever allow for . There is no need for a crazy drastic over emphasized attempt to spin the pivot forever with arms pinned to chest. You dont pull with arms either. You dont do that when scything grass (Wild Bill again). As such the Spine is the centre of the pivot rotation and the left shoulder is the centre of the arm swing. You can change this for putting and make a shoulder stroke with two bent arms and thereby have low point mid body. Or you can Full Sweep Release a wedge flop say and get the arms swinging early. But for full power you need a transfer of momentum and a long lever for leverage --the straight left arm and you need what Homer termed Independent body and arm motion ---one thing Lynn loves about the McDonald drills . What Abe Mitchell tried to explain in his 1933 book. Its what we do all day with our arms. Like hinged blades on a rotor .
Or one is hinged , one is a ball joint. I like your right shoulder ball joint thing. Nice.
Short version of above: Once the left arm pulls away from the body (#4 firing and its the first to go) the Arms are moving about their own centre the Left Shoulder . Well assuming a Left Arm as centre procedure ... you could use the Right Elbow as some pros do , with a soft bent left arm at impact.
A wise man once when discussing this very thing and the notion that Hogan kept em plugged in ALL THE TIME pointed me to the Augusta footage Power Golf where he is letting one rip , high and long with a driver . He is leaning back like a long drive guy , ball forward and just ripping it and almost falling backwards as he flights it high. And of note he looks like he is trying to throw his arms off as fast as he can . Sure keep em pinned for control shots with angled hinging ! Not saying you cant do that when the situation demands. As Homer might have said if he were alive to hear these arguments " The pinned arm guys arent wrong necessarily their theory is just... well , incomplete". Hogan didnt pin em all the time. You could pin em for every shot of course , not saying you cant , but it aint ideal IMO. Sure are a lot of guys doing it these days. I did for a while. with a blocked angled release. A buddy of mine just kills it like this. Short swing , pinned, sorta like the new Tiger swing. Theres room for a difference of opinion. You got options.
Well, Vertical to the ground at Impact, for the Left Wrist, is also Vertical to the Plane of the Left Wrist Cock. But for the Right Forearm Wedge, Vertical to the Ground is not the same as Vertical to the Plane . Both Wedges are Vertical to their respective Planes at Impact. That puts them at 90 degrees to each other.
It doesn't sound like your Right Forearm Wedge is On-Plane at Impact.
I "fly" the wedge down the plane. Like a flying wing. Because everything is turning about a remote center ("head") my elbow is moving -on plane - an my shoulder is moving and supporting the hands.
I "fly" the wedge down the plane. Like a flying wing. Because everything is turning about a remote center ("head") my elbow is moving -on plane - an my shoulder is moving and supporting the hands.
That is what I do- may not work for others.
HB
Ok. I'm just trying to get this clear in my head.
Impact:
Right Wrist is Bent
Right Wrist is Level
#3 PP and Elbow are On Plane
Right Wrist is Bent
Right Wrist is Level
#3 PP and Elbow are On Plane
Yup, gota have correct shoulder back and down, correct pitch in elbow and my machine is ok for me. I also have to work on balance a turn that stays around the "head" or shirt tag because without essentials the machine getas out of wack ---- and I just celebrated 12:12:12:12:12:12 here on the east coast----for me pp#3 feel is rotating, on plane, all the way to low point
The Release Swivel starts at Release and ends at Both Arms Straight.
2 Choices. 2 very simple demonstrations.
Release with Extensor Action/Throw-out Swivel
Release with Extensor Action/Drive-out no-Swivel
Demonstration 1 - Swingers:
Right Arm only.
Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
Lower the Palm while keeping the Elbow at your side. This is Extensor Action.
So, straightening the Right Arm by lowering the hand caused the Clubface to change its Alignment from On-Plane to Vertical for impact and the Right Hand became Aligned with the Elbow and Right Shoulder. Extensor Action without the #1 Accumulator.
So, the Release Swivel begins when the right arm begins to straighten (Release) and Ends when the Right Arm is Straight (Both Arms Straight).
Demonstration 2 - Hitters:
Right Arm only.
Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
Straighten the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away from you (Don't lower the Right Hand).
So, straightening the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away caused the right Elbow to move into a straight Alignment with the Hand and Shoulder. Straightening the Elbow by using the #1 Accumulator does not change the Vertical Clubface Alignment. Extensor Action with the #1 Accumulator, no Swivel.
These demonstrations can be easily performed On-Plane with the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. I think that a lot of the confusion occurs while trying to understand and use Extensor Action. Extensor Action is not the #1 Accumulator however, it does use the same muscle group and they can be used simultaneously.
Thanks Daryl!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
HB, re smaller: One word can imply quite a bit and save this idiot a lot of writing time.
IMO, the book assumes 90 degrees for clarity , brevity reasons in that it assumes one grip type . But Homer does define other grip types and their implications to wrist action. Hence my "smaller" . I personally have the wedges at about 90 degrees , (never measured em) but when writing I didnt want to exclude the stronger Left Hand Grip dudes with their (approaching) Single Wrist Action. Some have Turned their Left Hand all the way to Plane in their grip , at Fix even. IMO these stronger left hand grip types guys do not have their wedges at 90 degrees. But Im open for ideas on this.
Also if I may enter the Lab for a moment, even with a more neutral grip in common golf speak there is something else to consider: namely the effect on the nature of the left hand grip and wrist action and the relationship of the two wedges to each other, in degrees if you must , of positioning the ball back in the stance.
Lemme explain what Im thinking. We grip the club with the club in its FIX position. Not at low point or where ever . Now for balls played back in the stance , prior to forming the grip, the clubhead moves back along the Arc of Approach. AND THE HANDS MOVE BACK ALONG THEIR THREE DIMENSIONAL PATH TOO . If only slightly . As the left hand moves back , in, up it must Turn slightly. This is all prior to forming the grip. You dont form the grip at low point fix or some arbitrary place and then take the hands and clubhead back to where the ball actuallly is . You dont do this and then ROLL THE LEFT HAND AND GRIP WITH THE GRIP ALREADY FORMED TO SQUARE THE FACE TO THE TARGET . Some people do this , the
grip is precision alignment. Which demands precision. You dont form your grip vis a vis some lines on the rubber BTW arent those formed grip things are actually only correct for one ball position? Theoretically.
If you subscribe to this turning of the left hand grip, minute though it is ,as the ball placement moves back in the stance, then the wedges are not at 90 degrees to each other anymore and the Hand Action becomes more , er approaches a more Single Actiony action. I think. Please discuss. Mike O . whats your 20? Over. That is to say there is less turning required to get the left hand on plane , less Startup Swivel if you will for the shorter sticks , for balls played back of Straight Away.
Add Homer's Grip Rotation into this business and it would make for a nice little thread on how to adjust your machine for specific ball response . This relates to yodas recent post about Plane Line Rotation as (over) reco'd by some Trackman guys. Ive got a buddy who reps Flightscope we're supposed to get together and talk about all this. He's TGM literate so itll be interesting. Maybe Im making some wrong assumptions. I dunno. Im fascinated by the data these guys are looking at and the different ways to adjust the machine or dynamically change the path .
This is something we've never really gotten into . Homers ball flight stuff. Its all over the place in the book . What else is new you you say? Itd be nice to pull it together in a thread . Bucket started to but got jumped by a angry mob of visitors. Hopefully times have changed and those guys have gotten bored with us.
"And ...... loving it". "Max the cone of silence hasnt worked in three weeks". Happy Holidays LBG.
Thanks OB and Happy Holidays to you!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
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