Martee: My comments are in larger font.
I understand Clubhead Droop, but isn't it true that the current day shaft, at least to hear the manufactures talk, have all but eliminated most of this? I don't know all the claims of shaft makers, but if the droop is affecting your lie angles, you can adjust for it.
Also isn't it true for Hitters, clubhead droop is smaller than for swingers?
This may also be true probably because of shaft flex, again, adjust it to suit you ball flight once you are swinging on the correct plane.
In addition what consideration is given to hitting the ball and having separation prior to the club coming into contact with the ground? This seems to increase the lattidute of clubhead lie range that would be acceptable. Your ball flight will also be a telltale sign of incorrect lie angles.
I don't see how kickpoint comes into the forumla for Lie Angle and haven't really seen anything by top clubmakers (though I have only read and studied a few) consider this to be part of the Lie Angle. Can you address this? I also have not seen any info regarding kick point and lie, bottom line is: adjust your lie to suit your ball flight once you have established a correct swing plane. Always start with your shortest clubs and work toward the longer ones. The shorter and stiffer the shaft, the less droop. There is no need to complicate this, simply spend the time to be sure all your clubs are working for you and not against you.
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For instance my iron shafts were too weak and i needed the iron heads flattened by 2* for a 2* flat fit.
Same irons, stiffer shafts and i only needed 1* flat.
Same day testing...so did the "less droop" of the stiffer shafts effect that?
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Thanks
Possibly, but could have the orientation made a difference? Type of shaft.
I asked the question merely cause of what some shaft manufactures are saying along with guys like Tom Wishon. They do believe clubhead droop can be minimized to some extent.
1* droop difference between shaft flexes is what I read you are saying. Does that really IYO opinion make any significant difference in you shots? Having a 1* difference in lie angle, seems most shots played may be experiencing this just from the normal lie found on the course.
Homer seem to think that unless the toe or heel touched the surface prior to separation then the lie angle would be okay.
Just trying to understand where this is coming from and has it been tested out.
Brian, thanks again for another indepth, insightful answer.
I'd say from my own experiences on severe lies that shaft flex does help the droop. Just this weekend I was playing a course with some big slopes and noticed that the irons I had in my bag (aussie blades) drooped much more than the ones I usually play (mac 1025's) - the interesting thing was that they in 'theory' have the same shafts, s300's but the macs are newer - not sure if DG's have changed much between 96/7 and 2003/4 but the s300's in the macs are a much more 'stable' shaft than the older aussie blades. I had to compensate more with the aussie blades (which I of course found out the hard way, hitting a sidehill shot way too much on the toe, cost me a shot darnit).
The aussies are more upright though, but a touch - and they certainly 'feel' like a softer shaft than the macs. The swingweights are different though, so its hard to really judge.
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Does that really IYO opinion make any significant difference in you shots? Having a 1* difference in lie angle, seems most shots played may be experiencing this just from the normal lie found on the course.
It made a large difference on where i hit the ball on the clubface. Due to the droop i was hitting many shots out on the toe. I kept seeing "toe down" divots. So i bent them upright and still toe down divots and toe area impact.
Finally got with my fitter and all my lies were too upright. 2* up from the new standard, and it took 2* flat to get impact in the center.
With his shafts which were stiffer, it only required 1* flat.
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I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
I built a set of Wishon clubs and bent them 2* upright. After getting used to hitting I have come to realize that they are now too upright and need to be flatter, so the experiment goes like you say, do the PW and go from there. I agree that too much may be taken into droop. I FLO all my shafts and with graphite, especially with a pronounced spine, the FLO plane is usually 90* to the spine so in orienting shaft to head the FLO plane is at 3 to 9 o'clock and spine at 12 o'clock, to minimize droop, but no matter what lie angle will need to be adjusted accordingly, as every swing is different, flex etc. So to me impact tape, sole tape, lie board on the range will tell, but we must get this right. I like the way you measure and triagulate to get an initial lie angle then go up as needed. Ill remenber that, thanks.
About 4 years ago I got fitted and was told I needed 3 degrees upright. I played my Ping i3's that way. Then I went to Mizuno MP 29 blades and just automatically asked that they be bent 3 degrees upright.
My swing has been changing since discovering TGM. I just switched to a new set of Titleist 704 CB's. I figured I would need to bend them as well, but after hitting them for 2 weeks I don't think I'm going to bend them.
Why? Because my divots are shallow and square. Way back when, my divots were toe-heavy. The only time I get a toe-heavy divot now is if I come over the top.
So I think I will keep my lies standard and just stop coming over the top.
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